Grey and Gray Morality: Difference between revisions

** ''[[Gundam Seed]]'' has a variation of the [[Enemy Mine]] situation, where most of the protagonists and antagonists previously seen find out that the sides they work for are not as gray as they thought, so they rebel and join forces to form another group to fight both of them.

** ''[[Gundam AGE]]'' starts with an attack by the Unknown Enemy on the long-since peaceful Federation... {{spoiler|who abandoned hundreds of Mars colonists to agonizing disease rather than own up to the project being a terrible mistake, and they're still in the habit of rewriting history to be favorable to them. The UE are the descendents of those colonists, who want to return to Earth and get some revenge along the way.}} By the third generation, [[The Hero|Flit Asuno]] and [[Big Bad|Lord Ezelcant]] want to [[Not So Different|exterminate the other side]] more than anything else.

{{quote|"There are few wars between good and evil; most are between one good and another good." }}

* By the end of ''[[Martian Successor Nadesico]]'', it has been revealed that Earth was the aggressor in the so-called Jovian war, Nergal was the one who spearheaded and rewrote it, and the Jovian general is just as power-hungry and deceptive as you could ask for. The crew of the Nadesico gets backstabbed until they just don't care anymore, and decide to cut the war short their way.

* ''[[Simoun]]'', from the beginning. It starts with the POV of someone from one of the peripheral, heavily polluted nations talking about why they are invading Simulacrum, and it has examples throughout of both sides doing good and bad.

* The battles between the Marines and Pirates in ''[[One Piece]]'' depends on the person. Both sides have their good, and '''[[Complete Monster|(VERY)]]''' bad members. The Marines believe in two types of justice, moral justice, and Absolute Justice, while pirates can either be in it strictly for the adventure, or are in it for the raping and pillaging. While it still holds true to being good vs. evil, the end of the [[The Alcatraz|Impel Down Arc]] in ''[[One Piece]]'' shows lights of this with Hannybal. {{spoiler|He desperately tries to keep the prisoners from escaping Impel Down because he well understands that most of these people are the scum of the earth and deserve to be here, and letting them out will cause widespread fear to innocent people.}} In the end, Luffy's intentions are still to undo the evil of the World Government, but this particular arc reminds us that a majority of the pirates in the world are dangerous criminals themselves and that the Straw Hats are a rare group of freedom fighters.

* ''[[Steamboy]]'' explores the relationship between mankind and science, and aside from the O'Hara Foundation proper, none of the sides (Eddie Steam, Lloyd Steam, Scarlett O'Hara and Robert Stephenson) are shown to be entirely right or wrong.

* ''[[Vinland Saga]]'' is about [[Horny Vikings|vikings]]. The main character could generously be called a [[Heroic Sociopath]] and doesn't actually care what side he's on. The sides in question change, merge, and are destroyed through various slaughters and assassinations. It isn't so much [[Grey and Gray Morality]] as Gray Stew.

* ''[[Heroic Age]]'': at first glance appears to have [[Black and White Morality]] between the human protagonists and alien antagonists warring against them, but it eventually goes on to show some of the humans [[Kick the Dog]] a few times while some of the aliens are portrayed sympathetically and others afraid that humans will kill THEM if they don't [[Destroy All Humans!]] first, while both races appear to suffer from [[Blue and Orange Morality]]. Eventually, this trope is lampshaded and taken to its logical conclusion {{spoiler|when both sides call a truce and eventually end the war.}}

* In ''[[Neon Genesis Evangelion]]'', opponents NERV/SEELE and the Angels have a common goal: destroy the opponent and initiate Third Impact for their own ends. Eventually, NERV and SEELE oppose each other as well, since they have one slight difference in how they want their [[Assimilation Plot|orange juice]] served.

* ''[[Naruto]]'', anyone? There are five major Ninja Villages (and a slew of smaller ones), each calling their sides to be the righteous, superior one, only allying when there's a bigger threat. Don't mind the fact that each and every one of them [[Tyke Bomb|train children]] [[Child Soldiers|into ninjas]] [[Person of Mass Destruction|with techniques capable of leveling cities]]. Don't mind the fact that the Leaf Village mistreats Naruto out of mindless fear, the villains are Orochimaru (If you Wild Guess, you may think of him as a victim. If the village mistreats Naruto for protecting them, why not the snake-looking kid too?), {{spoiler|Pain/Nagato, whose parents, best friend and [[And Your Little Dog, Too|DOG]] were killed by Leaf ninjas}}, Sasuke who isn't wrong for wanting to murder his last family member, {{spoiler|(and the Leaf Village elders who ordered him)}} who massacred his entire clan. And there's [[Well-Intentioned Extremist|Danzo]], who is somewhat a prick, willing to destroy all other villages if necessary, even killing any Leaf ninjas whom he sees as defiant. He only does so to try and catch up to his former comrade Sarutobi, and protect the Hidden Leaf to the end. Since everyone is fighting for their own point of view, Good and Evil are pretty much useless.

** On the other hand, very few will disagree that {{spoiler|Tobi}} is an [[Complete Monster|irredeemable asshole.]] Even then, his master plan can be viewed as an attempt to {{spoiler|end all conflict in the world by using his Sharingan on everyone at once.}}

* ''[[Revolutionary Girl Utena]]'' is a perfect example. The student council are all fighting for their own personal goals (none of which are truly good or bad), and this applies to most every other character. Even Utena herself falls into this through most of the story, fighting because she wants to be a prince, and struggling to find her identity amongst it all rather than out of a sense of justice or love.

* ''[[Desert Punk (manga)|Desert Punk]]'' definitely fits this. Initially, it's a case of Punk fighting against people who are not much worse than him (and occasionally are somewhat better), but the ultimate plot about a rebellion falls squarely into this too. The Oasis Government presides over a horribly inequitable system (which is partly [[Inherent in the System]] because of the wasteland setting) and is involved in various conspiracies to control [[Lost Technology]] and silence those who find out about it. The rebels initially seem to be [[A Lighter Shade of Gray]], especially since sympathetic and idealistic government officials join them, but are made morally ambiguous because of a [[Utopia Justifies the Means]] attitude, which includes hiring unpleasant, even villainous characters to help their cause, one of whom has the outlook of an [[Omnicidal Maniac]] and is just manipulating them to advance his own goals.

* Given [[Real Life]] history, the Nations of ''[[Axis Powers Hetalia]]'' are definitely this. As everyone's shown to be good-at-heart in their own ways, not one of them is portrayed as utterly evil, including Ivan/Russia. This doesn't stop [[Dark Fic]] writers from making [[Complete Monster|complete Monsters]] of them, however,

== Comics ==

* ''[[Watchmen (comics)|Watchmen]]''. Dr. Manhattan is the larval form of an [[Eldritch Abomination]], both Rorschach and the Comedian are [[Heroic Sociopath|heroic sociopaths]] , and {{spoiler|Ozymandias}} is an [[Anti-Villain]] [[Well-Intentioned Extremist]]. None of the main characters is unambiguously villainous, but even Nite Owl and Silk Spectre are [[Anti-Hero|antiheroes]]. To quote Zack Snyder, director of the movie adaptation, "Superman doesn't care about humanity, Batman can't get it up, and the bad guy wants world peace."

* IDW's [[Transformers|Megatron: Origin]] miniseries shows the series's iconic [[Evil Overlord]]'s rise to power from a laid-off energon miner through underground [[Blood Sport|gladiator]] to the leader of a rebellion against a corrupt Cybertronian senate, with the Autobot Security Services presented as an incompetent and in some cases fascistic police force under the control of the aforementioned senate.

* [[World War Hulk]]: Warbound vs Illuminati. The Illuminati weren't guilty of the crime that Hulk was avenging, but they ''were'' the reason he was on Sakaar in the first place.

* ''[[Scalped]]''. Dash is an [[Anti-Hero]] at best, and Red Crow has many shades of being an [[Anti-Villain]]. He definitely faces enough [[Complete Monster|complete monsters]] that it's hard to pin him as the worst thing that could happen to the Rez.

* ''[[Alien vs. Predator]]'', in both comics and video games, as the [[Alien]] is not much sentient, the [[Predator]] borders on [[Blue and Orange Morality]], and the humans are most times just doing their jobs. Whoever it's the villain depends on the viewpoint character.

* Steven Erikson's ''[[Malazan Book of the Fallen]]'' has this part of the time, such as in the Malazan/Darujhistan conflict and the Letherii/Tiste Edur Conflict. At other times the series veers into [[Black and Gray Morality]] (the Crippled God vs. everyone else) and even [[Black and White Morality]] ({{spoiler|Anomander Rake vs. Chaos}} in ''Toll the Hounds'').

* [[Philip Pullman]], who wrote the ''[[His Dark Materials]]'' series, is the master of this trope. The story revolves around a mysterious thing called Dust. One side, the adults, believe it is evil and corrupting the innocent children; whereas the children themselves know basically nothing about it but dislike what the adults are doing, so they decide that it's really good. This gets less ambiguous, but it is still possible to read it as the Dust is a [[Necessary Evil]], or an Ultimate Good; and even individual characters are like this. Lyra's mother, for example, is one massive, manipulative bitch who {{spoiler|cuts childrens' daemons away from them (which is like splitting your soul in half}} but, on the other hand, she eventually {{spoiler|sacrifices herself with Lord Asriel, Lyra's father, to take down Metatron and "make the world safe for Lyra."}} Who the ''ultimate'' evil -- the ''most'' evil -- is is another good question; whether it's the Authority, the Church, Mrs Coulter, Dust, the people interpreting the Church's positions, the Knife, the Specters, or Father Gomez and his forces. And as if that weren't enough, they're left with a [[Bittersweet Ending]], too.

* The ''[[Chaos Walking]]'' trilogy is all about this. While Mayor Prentiss is a darker shade of gray, Mistress Coyle and the Answer's methods of stopping him (no matter what the cost) can be those of a terrorist or a freedom fighter. This is heightened when the heroes are forced upon the two different sides, while being aware of how much rubbish the whole war is. Also the fact that it's practically a gender battle heightens the uncertainty of the war. In the third book {{spoiler|they team up in an alliance against the Spackle, even though the Spackle are the ones that were treated so terribly}}

* ''[[The Iliad]]'', by [[Homer]], and the rest of the [[The Trojan Cycle|Trojan Cycle]], making this [[Older Than Feudalism]].

* [[George R. R. Martin]]'s ''[[A Song of Ice and Fire]]'' series, sort of. Every major faction, taken as a whole, has flaws and redeeming qualities; no one is unreasonable. In the end, it's the methods they choose to use that decides whether they are a villain or a protagonist:

** The Starks are protagonists because they are [[Honor Before Reason|honourable to a fault]] and seek out diplomatic solutions before entering combat. Despite this, one of their most useful bannermen is Roose Bolton, who is tolerated as a [[Token Evil Teammate]] {{spoiler|until he finally does betray them}}, and testimony from peasants in the wrong place at the wrong time show that lower ranking Stark soldiers [[Rape, Pillage and Burn]] just as much as the Lannisters.

** Dany is fighting to back her family's throne, despite it being repeatedly drawn to her attention that her father genuinely was a lunatic, and that the people of the Westeros just want to be left out of the power struggles; at first she believes the lies she had been told about how the commoners secretly prayed for the return of Westeros' "true" rulers, but even when she is disabused of this notion, she keeps going to get revenge on the "Usurpers" and reclaim her birthright, rather than worrying whether "her" subjects actually care enough to want another brutal civil war. She has also done a great deal of sacking and pillaging to get where she is now.

** Generally the medieval fantasy setting and the accompanying [[Values Dissonance]] means that any one of the lords seems phenomenally egotistical and self-righteous by today's standards, which is one of the reasons {{spoiler|[[The Spymaster|Varys]]}} is such an interesting character; he genuinely does seem to care about the realm as a whole more than the pissing contests between the squabbling nobles.

* In ''[[Lonely Werewolf Girl]]'' no one is really heroic in this tale, Kalix killed her father, Sarapen is batshit insane, the rest of the werewolves downright callous and manipulative, Moonglow cheats on her boyfriend, Daniel is trying to be a [[Dogged Nice Guy]] to Moonglow, Malveria a [[Retired Monster]], and the Avenaris Guild of werewolf hunters are trigger happy sociopaths.

* The [[Civil War]] in Bernard Cornwell's ''Starbuck Chronicles''. This is because rather than deal with the causes of the war he approaches it from the perspective of the individuals on both sides and finds that there are heroes and scoundrels on both sides. Emphasized by making the viewpoint character, Nathaniel Starbuck, a "Copperhead" (a Northerner who sided with the South) and another major character, Adam Falconer, a "Scalawag" (a Southerner who sided with the North).

* [[Fuguefora Darkening Island|Fugue for a Darkening Island]] invokes this trope, 70's Britain split into civil war as thousands of African refugees flee into Europe to escape a nuclear war. The refugees are innocent and desperate, but often violent and thuggish. The fascist government is cruel and oppressive, but the only thing preventing the total collapse of the country. The secessionist movement is liberal and free, but weak and elitist.'

* ''[[The Underland Chronicles]]'': The human-rat war is FULL of this.

* David Drake's Hammer's Slammers does a good job of showing how this trope [[Combat Pragmatist|applies]] [[I Did What I Had to Do|in]] [[War Is Hell]]; both the titular mercenaries and their opponents do some [[Shoot the Dog|pretty]] [[Obligatory War Crime Scene|despicable]] things in order to hold their own losses down, like nuking a rebel stronghold because attacking it any other way would result in unacceptable losses for the attackers. When the series deviates from Gray and Gray, it's usually to go to [[Black and Grey Morality|Black and Gray]], especially if [[The Unfettered|Major]] [[Psycho Sidekick|Joachim]] [[Complete Monster|Steuben]] is involved.

* [[Keys to the Kingdom]] has a lot of this as well. Dame Primus is quite [[The Chessmaster]], and not in a good way. The only truly good character is Arthur, and he barely has any idea what's going on for a lot of the time.

* Jodi Picoult's ''[[My Sister's Keeper]]''. On the one hand, we have a mother who is desperate to save her daughter's life, even if it means subjecting her other daughter to a variety of increasingly invasive medical procedures against her will. On the other hand, we have a girl who doesn't want to undergo dangerous and painful medical procedures anymore and wants to be seen for herself rather than as replacement body parts for her sister, even if it means taking away her sick sister's last chance at survial. Welcome to the world of no right answers, folks.

* In ''[[The 39 Clues]]'' book series, even [[Brother-Sister Team|Amy and Dan]], who are by far the nicest and most principled [[Big Screwed-Up Family|clue hunters]], will do morally questionable things from time to time.

** It was common in the show's early historical episodes. ''The Crusade'' shows both Richard the Lionheart and Saladdin to be honourable men.

** ''Doctor Who and the Silurians'' is a textbook example as both the humans and the Silurians are shown to be equally aggressive and honourable, with even the Brigadier commiting attrocities to win.

* {{spoiler|The Vorlons and the Shadows}} in ''[[Babylon 5]]'' -- eventually. The conflict is definitely black-and-white for the first three seasons, but then swerves into grey-and-gray shortly before the war ends.

** JMS pointed out in first season commentary that he was proud to have pulled this off when the Vorlons were just as prone to blow stuff up with no real justification.

* The new ''[[Battlestar Galactica Reimagined]]'' started off with the Cylons nuking the entire twelve colonies (ostensibly in retribution for the human's mistreatment of them before the first Cylon War) and the surviving Colonials running and trying to find Earth in a rag-tag fleet. However, as the seasons went on, the Colonials were shown more and more as people who could compromise their morality to survive, ultimately culminating in the {{spoiler|arrival of the Pegasus and Admiral Cain, who not only allowed torture, but allowed her sole Cylon prisoner to be raped over and over again. Near the end of the second season, the episode "Downloaded" also showed a different side to the Cylons ? some even thought the destruction of humanity had been a bad thing. This eventually resulted in an [[Enemy Civil War]] and the end of the fourth season saw an alliance between the Colonial Fleet and the Rebel Cylons.}}

* In various seasons of ''[[Survivor (TV series)|Survivor]]'', the final two (three in more recent seasons) was often seen as this, both (or all three) people pretty much annoyed the Jury and they wound up voting for who they viewed as the lesser evil.

** ''Thailand'' - Brian was a cold emotional sociopath who barely even spoke to the other tribe, and was accused of sexism and backstabbing among all things, while Clay was accused of racism and generally being a lech. Brian won only because he had enough people who respected him on the jury.

** ''Samoa'' is another more recent example of [[Grey and Gray Morality]]. Most of the jury was indeed angry at all three, who either rode coattails to the end without contributing much on their own and saying they deserved it in real life, (Mick), rode coattails and played dumb (Natalie), or wantonly bullied their way through the game and bragged about how awesome they were (Russell). Ultimately the vote was overwhelmingly towards Natalie - not for her strategic play or physical prowess, but because the jury thought she was a legitimately nice person.

** DeWitt's house, at least, seems to recruit people in desperate straits and helps them establish new lives after their term is finished. Whether this is rescuing them or preying on those with no options is an exercise for the viewer.

** The episode where we first see Tudyk's character, {{spoiler|Alpha}}, really shows the G&G. {{spoiler|The start of the episode shows Echo saving a young girl from a downward spiral and helping her get over her traumatic past, while Ballard sneaks into the Dollhouse after finding it, accidentally bringing Alpha with him and causing problems while trying to help.}}

* ''[[Farscape]]'' will be like this when it's not in outright [[Black and Grey Morality]] mode.

* In ''[[Merlin (TV series)|Merlin]]'', the boy wizard himself and Arthur are definitely good guys. But they support a [[Knight Templar]] king who would execute Merlin if he knew the truth, often against [[Designated Villain|designated villains]] with a legitimate grievance, and Merlin often makes some [[What the Hell, Hero?|questionable choices]] to balance his nature against his support of the king. Why? In Arthur's case, family loyalty; in Merlin's it's just [[Because Destiny Says So]] ("destiny" in this case being a dragon with a fairly major grudge against Uther himself). Hence, when {{spoiler|Morgana decides to side with Morguase}}, it's very hard to see it as a [[Face Heel Turn]], and the script doesn't really make much attempt to present it as such.

** The prequel, ''[[Deus Ex: Human Revolution|Deus Ex Human Revolution]]'' continues the tradition by asking you to side with one of three competing viewpoints regarding human augmentation and subsequently nudge the public interest in that direction... But you also get a fourth choice where you can refuse all of them and leave the world's to decide it's own fate (of course being a prequel to the first Deus Ex, the results are pretty much foregone no matter what you decide).

* The three player factions (Humans, Mutants, and Biomeks) of ''[[Auto Assault]]'' were set up to be like this, but when you really look into it the Humans turn out to be the biggest bastards of the bunch, even if they were originally doing it to ensure their survival.

** There's a major [[What the Hell, Player?]] moment in C&C 3, as if you're playing as GDI (the ''"good"'' guys), on the last mission you can choose to use a bomb that will kill hundreds of millions and destroy all of Europe. For this, the rational General who seemed like a pretty stand-up guy resigns in disgust, and the slimy politician (whose incompetence was [[Evil Plan|all part of Kane's Plan]]) ''promotes you''.

* ''[[Ace Combat]] 5'' has a war between superpowers [[Eagle Land|Osea]] and [[Lzherusskie|Yuktobania]] at war with one another...until it becomes known that Belkans had been infiltrating high-ranking positions in the two countries, and essentially setting up the war so they'd destroy each other as vengeance for losing the last one. By the end, both superpowers team up and collectively beat the tar out of the interlopers.

** The [[Scary Dogmatic Aliens|Covenant]]'s ruling caste is highly corrupt (and in some cases, possibly borderline insane), and the [[Killer Space Monkey|Brutes]] are [[Blood Knight|aggressive and violent by nature]], but the rest are either [[Corrupt Church|misguided by religious fervor]], [[Cannon Fodder|expendable slaves for all intents and purposes]], otherwise coerced into serving the Covenant, or simply [[Punch Clock Villain|mercenaries with no real grudge against humans]].

** The [[Neglectful Precursors|Forerunners]] genuinely wished to protect the galaxy and its inhabitants, but they grew complacent because of their extremely advanced technology, and when [[The Virus|the Flood]] came knocking, they could only fulfill their duty as Guardians of the younger species of the galaxy by taking the Flood with themselves in a desperate last resort plan -- which could be interpreted as a [[Heroic Sacrifice]] or the cost of their foolishness, depending on how idealistic/cynical one is.

* ''Der Langrisser'' definitely falls into this trope. No matter what side you choose you'll end up fighting for peace while doing awful things in the way. There's no possible path that spares you the dramatic scene and the guilt of killing someone decent. You kill {{spoiler|Vargas, who's just had a little daughter, and get to watch Leon tell his wife the sad news}} in the Light path, and you slaughter {{spoiler|Scott and his father, in a rather cruel fashion}} in all others.

* In ''[[Dynasty Warriors]]'', Wei might look like the [[Designated Villain]]. However, Cao Cao himself is just merely a pragmatist [[Magnificent Bastard]]. In the meantime, while Shu Kingdom is the [[Designated Hero]], Liu Bei has personally done some things worth being called out, such as taking over his kingdom from his relative Liu Zhang for 'destiny', and his reckless assault on Yi Ling. The Wu Kingdom themselves can be also seen as an 'opportunist' who takes advantage of the chaos to do as they like. Aside of all those, each kingdoms have their own sympathetic characters. Even Zhang Jiao comes off pretty sympathetic and his ending had him true to his words and made a peaceful nation with his Way Of Peace. Hell, the only [[Obviously Evil]] character is just Dong Zhuo.

* ''[[Red vs. Blue]]''. The default characterization seems to be 'incompetent jerk', with variations lying mostly in the type and degree of incompetence and/or [[Jerkass|jerkassery]].

* [[Dark Dream Chronicle]]. One side has [[Cute but Psycho|the Laughing Clown]] and [[Would Hurt a Child|Darkness]] as two of its primary members. The other is trying to warp humanity for their [[Utopia Justifies the Means|Cause]] and are more than willing to use violence to get there. Oh, and it's led by the [[The Slender Man Mythos|Slender]] [[Humanoid Abomination|Man]].

* [[Equestria Chronicles]] takes place in a cold civil war setting. Nuff said.

* While Doug's writings of the anniversaries are a bit blacker, [[The Nostalgia Critic]]'s show runs on this. Critic's a [[Psychopathic Manchild]] but tries to be a decent human being, Sage-as-Satan is much less scary than he is as his normal self in other series, [[Big Good]] Santa Christ can hold a mean grudge and even major troll Douchey manages to show a bit of heart when he feels pity for Critic at the end of the third fuck-up list.

* [[Truth in Television|Pretty much any conflict in reality can be boiled down to this]] - everyone has their own motivations for their acts.

** Case in point, the English Civil War. On the one hand you've got the Roundheads, democratic ([[Fair for Its Day|for the times]]) Parliamentarians led by elected MPs, who also believed in forcing their own brand of repressive Puritanism down Britain's (or rather England, Scotland, and Ireland's) collective throat; and on the other, the Cavaliers, a group of cheerful, fun-loving, relatively liberal unelected nobles, lead by Charles I, who believed he had a God-given right to randomly declare war on other European nations, and demand massive tax revenues to pay for them, with no legal obstacles whatever. They were both fairly dark shades of grey.

** The [[Arab-Israeli Conflict]]. Both sides are sympathetic, but at the same time, both have committed atrocities. [[Rule of Cautious Editing Judgement|That's all we'll say about this]].

*** Likewise, the Nagorno-Karabakh conflict between Armenia and Azerbaijan after [[The Great Politics Mess-Up]], which quickly turned ugly for both sides with ethnic massacres all around, and was started thanks to [[Joseph Stalin]] some 50 years prior when he gave a mostly Armenian-populated province to the Azerbaijani SSR. The fact that the conflict has been frozen and unsolved since 1994 has just given time for the hatred between the two countries to fester.