Jews Love to Argue: Difference between revisions

Line 13:

''You call that a simile?''

Hey, I'm trying. Give me a break. This probably has to do with the layout of the [[~~Talmud~~ ~~(Literature)~~|Talmud]], which contains a whole lot of back-and-forth arguments, arguments about what other people are arguing about, and often not even a resolution to the arguments (Or an argument if there is an argument or not...).

Hey, I'm trying. Give me a break. This probably has to do with the layout of the [[The Talmud|Talmud]], which contains a whole lot of back-and-forth arguments, arguments about what other people are arguing about, and often not even a resolution to the arguments (Or an argument if there is an argument or not...).

''Oho, so you're the big ''gemarakup''<ref>talmudic scholar</ref> now?''

I don't even know what that means. Anyway, this is a joke [[Self-Deprecation|more common among Jews themselves]] than among gentiles. Such conversations are generally (in fiction) liberally peppered with [[Yiddish As a Second Language]].

I don't even know what that means. Anyway, this is a joke [[Self-Deprecation|more common among Jews themselves]] than among gentiles. Such conversations are generally (in fiction) liberally peppered with [[Yiddish as a Second Language]].

''That's your ''gevaldige''<ref>terrific</ref> description? If I had known you'd write such ''dreck''<ref>crap</ref>, I wouldn't have come over.''

Line 41:

== [[Comic Books]] ==

* In ''[[~~American Splendor (Comic Book)|~~American Splendor]]'', Harvey Pekar notes that old Jewish women will argue over ANYTHING at the checkout counter of a grocery store.

* In ''[[American Splendor]]'', Harvey Pekar notes that old Jewish women will argue over ANYTHING at the checkout counter of a grocery store.

* One strip in ''[[Torpedo]]'' has the titular contract killer out of town for a few days, so his assistant decides to take a few contracts himself, thinking it can't be that hard. However, it turns out two Jewish shopkeepers had mutually asked that he kill the other, so he spends some time going back and forth between the two shops as they increase the price. Finally he snaps and [[Too Dumb to Live|drags them both out in the middle of the street so they can settle the argument without involving him]]. Several hours later, they come to an understanding by beating the crap out of the poor guy.

== [[Film]] ==

* A scene in ''[[The Hebrew Hammer]]'' where the Jewish Justice League talks about the best man for the job.

* [[Woody Allen]]'s [[Jewish Complaining|kvetching]] in ''[[~~Annie Hall (Film)|~~Annie Hall]]'' inevitably turned into some kind of argument.

* [[Woody Allen]]'s [[Jewish Complaining|kvetching]] in ''[[Annie Hall]]'' inevitably turned into some kind of argument.

* In ''[[You Don't Mess With the Zohan]]'', Israeli Jews love to argue... with Palestinians. It's really quite civil and all in good fun, though.

* ''[[God On Trial]]'' is a movie about a group of Jewish prisoners at a concentration camp, arguing whether or not God is to blame for their predicament. Arguing is all that happens in the movie.

Line 63:

== [[Live Action TV]] ==

* ''[[The Daily Show]]'' commonly features this trope due to the influence of [[Jon Stewart]].

** While doing a story on [[~~Tomorrows~~ Pioneers|a Palestine kid's show explaining why they need to destroy Israel]], the show fired back with a fake Israeli equivalent, [[Stylistic Suck|"Dr. Bagelman's Hour of Hate"]], which quickly devolved into the hosts quarreling. Stewart quipped, "I shouldn't laugh, but that's actually just an audio recording from my Bar Mitzvah."

** While doing a story on [[Tomorrow's Pioneers|a Palestine kid's show explaining why they need to destroy Israel]], the show fired back with a fake Israeli equivalent, [[Stylistic Suck|"Dr. Bagelman's Hour of Hate"]], which quickly devolved into the hosts quarreling. Stewart quipped, "I shouldn't laugh, but that's actually just an audio recording from my Bar Mitzvah."

** Stewart uses this joke in his stand up, including why it proves there isn't a [[Greedy Jew|Jewish conspiracy to control the banks]]. They couldn't get the meeting started without an argument.

** The show once sent correspondent Wyatt Cenac to a Jewish rest home in Florida to talk about the 2008 election. Eventually, the group interviews degenerated into such a morass of argument (over the issue of what to order for dessert) that [http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/mon-july-21-2008/baruch-obama Cenac was left sitting on the sidelines, genuinely stunned.]

* ''[[Curb Your Enthusiasm]]'' is a show about this trope. Larry David and a predominantly Jewish cast argue about the slightest trivialities, then argue about the fact that they're arguing.

* ''[[The Big Bang Theory]]'' Wolowitz and [[Jewish Mother|his mother]].

* ''[[~~Grandmas House|~~Grandma's House]]'' is made of this, too.

* ''[[Grandma's House]]'' is made of this, too.

* [[Kenny vs. Spenny]] seems to count. Both of the guys are of Jewish heritage, though neither are observant.

* ''[[Seinfeld]]'' features a great deal of very Jewy arguments over the trivialities of day-to-day life. Many people are surprised to learn that only Jerry is actually supposed to be Jewish on the show, though George is based on Larry David, and Elaine is played by a Jew.

Line 74:

== Religion and Mythology ==

* This is what the Midrash and the [[~~Talmud~~ ~~(Literature)~~|Talmud]] are, Rabbis arguing. And in [[The Bible|the Torah]], Jews argue with God. Abraham frickin' haggles with God over the amount of righteous men needed to save Sodom and Gomorrah.

* This is what the Midrash and the [[The Talmud|Talmud]] are, Rabbis arguing. And in [[The Bible|the Torah]], Jews argue with God. Abraham frickin' haggles with God over the amount of righteous men needed to save Sodom and Gomorrah.

** The name "Israel" which God originally gave Jacob (Genesis 32:28) means "He wrestles with God". While the story of Jacob struggling with the Angel is usually thought of in a purely literal sense, the more figurative meaning--that Israel's people (i.e. the Jews) are always "wrestling" (arguing) with God--is every bit as valid. Due to the complexities of the Hebrew language, the exact nature of ''how'' they wrestle is unclear. It could actually be a mental 'struggle' in Jacob's own mind.

** Possibly. But there are several varying translation for 'isra', from 'rule' to 'straight'. They are the "Israelites," so wrestling with God is part of their name too.

Line 82:

** There's a book titled, ''Arguing with God: A Jewish Tradition''. Abraham was just the start.

** There's also a story of Rabbi Eliezer ben Hyrcanus, a prominent (and ''extremely'' conservative) Roman era rabbi, trying to convince the Sanhedrin that he was in the right about a particular kind of oven being impervious to Levitical uncleanness. Even when overruled, he managed to call on various signs from the natural world (trees, a stream, the beams of the Sanhedrin building) to show he was in the right. Each time, the Sanhedrin ''dismissed the sign'' as the sign-bearer stepping outside of its jurisdiction. Finally, Eliezer beseeched ''God himself'' to step in...which he ''did'', identifying Eliezer as correct about the oven being tamei-proof. Cue the Sanhedrin head ''rebuking God for this'', even quoting Deuteronomy to the effect that the demands of the law put jurisdiction ''only'' among the rabbis; "it is not in the heavens". Let that sink in; the rabbis ''dismissed God for overstepping his legal bounds''. Best part? Immediately afterwards, at the throne of Heaven, God was ''laughing with delight'', saying "My children have defeated me, my children have defeated me!".

** Another story from the [[~~Talmud~~ ~~(Literature)~~|Talmud]] highlights the degree of affection involved in the process. Rabbi Yohanan's study partner, Resh Lakish, dies, and the other rabbis find him someone new to work with. But where Resh Lakish would argue every point Yohanan made, no matter how obviously correct, the new guy was willing to say "you're right". This did not help Yohanan's mood. According to the Talmud, Yohanan replies that Resh Lakish would pick apart everything Yohanan said, and in answering the rebuttals the discussion would move forward. But this new guy - hah! "But you [the new partner] say 'we learned a teaching that supports you.' Of course I know that I am right!" And on that thought, he goes out to shed some [[Manly Tears]] for his old argument partner..

** Another story from the [[The Talmud|Talmud]] highlights the degree of affection involved in the process. Rabbi Yohanan's study partner, Resh Lakish, dies, and the other rabbis find him someone new to work with. But where Resh Lakish would argue every point Yohanan made, no matter how obviously correct, the new guy was willing to say "you're right". This did not help Yohanan's mood. According to the Talmud, Yohanan replies that Resh Lakish would pick apart everything Yohanan said, and in answering the rebuttals the discussion would move forward. But this new guy - hah! "But you [the new partner] say 'we learned a teaching that supports you.' Of course I know that I am right!" And on that thought, he goes out to shed some [[Manly Tears]] for his old argument partner..

** A joke may also illustrate the point: Four Rabbis were arguing a point of doctrine, three were siding against the one and finally told him that if he disagreed so strongly to ask God. As the dissenting Rabbi raised his hands to the heavens and began to speak, the sun burned through the heavy clouds and wreathed him in golden radiance, an unearthly chorus began to sing, and a voice like thunder echoed from the heavens '''"HE IS RIGHT"'''<br />The three Rabbis looked at the heavenly endorsed fourth and concluded simply "Its still three to two against you".

Line 96:

'''MULE!''' }}

* "Four Jews In A Room Bitching" is the title of the opening number of ''[[March Of The Falsettos]]''.

* ''[[~~Salome (Theatre)|~~Salome]]'' has five Jews arguing with each other about the nature of God.

* ''[[Salome]]'' has five Jews arguing with each other about the nature of God.

* Mushnik does this frequently in ''[[Little Shop of Horrors]]''.

== [[Web Comics]] ==

* In ''[[Everyday Heroes]]'', father and son are both lawyers, [http://www.webcomicsnation.com/eddurd/everydayheroes/series.php?view=single&ID=173833 reviewing a difficult case.]

* Invoked in a [http://hellsing.comicgenesis.com/d/20080615.html side-comic] of ''[[~~And Shine Heaven Now (Webcomic)|~~And Shine Heaven Now]]'' to illustrate the difficulty of defining who counts as a Jew, among other things.

* Invoked in a [http://hellsing.comicgenesis.com/d/20080615.html side-comic] of ''[[And Shine Heaven Now]]'' to illustrate the difficulty of defining who counts as a Jew, among other things.

== [[Web Original]] ==