Point Defenseless: Difference between revisions

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* In ''[[Mai-HiME]]'', a Searrs ship is prominently seen failing to nail Midori and Gakutenou even when they're moving in predictable straight-line paths. When Mai and Kagutsuchi attack some ships, some time is spent showing ''one'' SAM going after them. Not even one per ship; one ''total''.

* The Phalanx CIWS in one of the Arleigh Burke class ships in [[Sentou Yousei Yukikaze]] could not take down the JAM fighter heading straight for it. Justified in that the JAM fighter was flying lower than the gun's maximum depression point. The second JAM fighter ''seems'' to have been brought down by another cruiser, but chances are it was Yukikaze's kill.

* During Ivanovic's invasion in ''[[Dance in ~~The Vampire Bund (Manga)|Dance in The~~ Vampire Bund]]'', the Phalanx CIWS guns on the island's perimeter are unable to stop incoming cruise missiles [[Justified Trope|because they were sabotaged]]. Subverted when the saboteur then turns them on Bund-controlled helicopter gunships.

* During Ivanovic's invasion in ''[[Dance in the Vampire Bund]]'', the Phalanx CIWS guns on the island's perimeter are unable to stop incoming cruise missiles [[Justified Trope|because they were sabotaged]]. Subverted when the saboteur then turns them on Bund-controlled helicopter gunships.

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* The film version of Tom Clancy's ''[[The Sum of All Fears]]'' had a scene where an American carrier (unrealistically traveling without escorts) is set upon by Russian aircraft. It is seen firing its CIWS at the incoming missiles, to little effect. This was actually something of a transplant of a [[Red Storm Rising|scene from another Tom Clancy novel]] (see the Literature entry).

** It did have escorts. [[Redshirt Army|They just didn't have their radars on, never fired a missile or put their ship between the threat and the carrier.]]

* ''[[Red Tails]]'' more or less plays this straight, especially for the [[Redshirt Army|hapless crews]] of the [[Exactly What It Says On the Tin|Flying Fortress]] bombers. More or less [[Truth in Television]] there.

* ''[[Red Tails]]'' more or less plays this straight, especially for the [[Redshirt Army|hapless crews]] of the [[Exactly What It Says on the Tin|Flying Fortress]] bombers. More or less [[Truth in Television]] there.

** Seemingly the sole exception in the entire movie is when {{spoiler|Junior}} gets hit by a flak gun while raiding a German airfield. {{spoiler|He survives, only to be shot down again later on. He survives that time too.}}

** Worth noting, when they fly into the range of German [[Anti-Air]] guns over a bombing target, the fighter pilots have to bug out and link up with the bombers again later, since there is nothing that they can do to defend the heavies from the large anti-aircraft guns. That's certainly acceptable since since the German fighters do the same to avoid friendly fire, of course.

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*** The ''Lancer''-class frigate suffers from being [[Awesome but Impractical]]: it's effective (the one the Rogues face in ''Rogue Squadron'' is only beaten by a [[Macross Missile Massacre]] from the Y-Wings), but it's too expensive and requires too many crew. It is also a victim of [[Crippling Overspecialization]], having no chance against standard capital ships.

* In [[Tad Williams]]' ''[[Otherland]]'', during the climax, the [[Evil Tower of Ominousness|mile-high tower]] that is the headquarters of J Corp is revealed to possess surface-to-air missile defenses to complement its private army. Considering that they are employed to deal not with aircraft but with a {{spoiler|[[Colony Drop|massive satellite falling from orbit]]}}, it's unsurprising that they prove ineffective.

* ''[[~~Honor Harrington (Literature)|~~Honor Harrington]]'', being relatively-realistically-extrapolated [[Space Opera]] [[Military Science Fiction]], plays with this in fifteen different ways. Firstly, no one is ever actually flying in any sort of fighter that would be vulnerable to point defense systems, but they use many different layers of missile defense to deal with the [[Macross Missile Massacre]] that becomes the standard method of attack. Of course, actual point defense systems as we know them are only one layer of this shield, and not nearly the most effective one. On the other hand, they do form one of the final lines of defense against enemy fire. Of course, the older ships of the Solarian League use autocannon point defense (as opposed to laser) which is horribly obsolete compared to Manticoran or Havenite multi-drive missiles, and so will play the trope straight.

* ''[[Honor Harrington]]'', being relatively-realistically-extrapolated [[Space Opera]] [[Military Science Fiction]], plays with this in fifteen different ways. Firstly, no one is ever actually flying in any sort of fighter that would be vulnerable to point defense systems, but they use many different layers of missile defense to deal with the [[Macross Missile Massacre]] that becomes the standard method of attack. Of course, actual point defense systems as we know them are only one layer of this shield, and not nearly the most effective one. On the other hand, they do form one of the final lines of defense against enemy fire. Of course, the older ships of the Solarian League use autocannon point defense (as opposed to laser) which is horribly obsolete compared to Manticoran or Havenite multi-drive missiles, and so will play the trope straight.

** One of the recurring elements of the books is loving, detailed descriptions of how many missiles are whittled away--or not--by each layer of protection. They almost invariably end with "[X] got through." followed by a cut to the targets' experience, often with an [[Oh Crap]] or several.

* Generally averted in [[Dale Brown]] books, where [[Macross Missile Massacre|Macross Missile Massacres]] and stealth have to be used to get munitions past layers on layers of enemy PD.

* Averted in David Drake's ''Hammers Slammers'' stories because the availability of near-light-speed energy weapons has rendered aircraft and slow-flying missiles obsolete in a combat zone; if you can see it, you can kill it.

* In the assorted ''Starfire'' books by Steven White (and [[David Weber]]), point defense against fighters and missiles is a critical part of combat but doesn't work nearly as well as you'd think their technology should allow.

* In [[Harry Turtledove]]'s ''[[Worldwar ~~(Literature)~~]]'' books, [[Lizard Folk|the Race]] uses anti-missile missiles to shoot down [[World War Two]]-era human missiles. However, human missiles get better and better as the war rages on, and the Race is incapable of manufacturing more missiles. These AM missiles generally have a good track record, with the notable exception of the Dora railway gun, which managed to fire two shots and blow up two Race starships. The large Dora rounds are misidentified by a Race radar technician as missiles, who engages standard anti-missile defenses. However, the rounds' thick shells prevent them from being shot down by the AM missiles. Then again, there's nothing that the lizards could've done at this point, as their starships are merely interstellar troop transports with no armor or armaments of their own.

* In [[Harry Turtledove]]'s ''[[Worldwar]]'' books, [[Lizard Folk|the Race]] uses anti-missile missiles to shoot down [[World War Two]]-era human missiles. However, human missiles get better and better as the war rages on, and the Race is incapable of manufacturing more missiles. These AM missiles generally have a good track record, with the notable exception of the Dora railway gun, which managed to fire two shots and blow up two Race starships. The large Dora rounds are misidentified by a Race radar technician as missiles, who engages standard anti-missile defenses. However, the rounds' thick shells prevent them from being shot down by the AM missiles. Then again, there's nothing that the lizards could've done at this point, as their starships are merely interstellar troop transports with no armor or armaments of their own.

== Live Action TV ==

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== Tabletop Games ==

* A third-party supplement for ''[[D 20 System|d20 Anime]]'' used this trope in order to match the feel of real anime. One of the settings, a [[Serial Numbers Filed Off]] version of ''[[Macross]]'', has a sidebar describing the capabilities of the heroes' home base ship, saying that it has no stats due to "[[Plot Armor|dramatic immunity]]" (except in the final battle) and that its point defenses can mow down hordes of cannon fodder mecha, but are useless against the enemy commanders (who will no doubt develop [[The Rival|rivalries]] with the protagonists).

* Anti-missile systems in ''[[~~Battle Tech~~]]'' have aspects of this. Depending on the ruleset, they either run out of ammo almost instantly or are actually forbidden from being 100% effective -- ie, if the attacker succeeded on his to-hit roll, at least one missile ''will'' hit the target, regardless of how good its point defense is.

* Anti-missile systems in ''[[BattleTech]]'' have aspects of this. Depending on the ruleset, they either run out of ammo almost instantly or are actually forbidden from being 100% effective -- ie, if the attacker succeeded on his to-hit roll, at least one missile ''will'' hit the target, regardless of how good its point defense is.

* Surprisingly an [[Averted Trope]] in ''[[Mekton]]''. A well-designed point-defense system can shred virtually any Mekton in only a few hits. For this reason, point defense is very often left out of warship designs...

* Averted in [[Battlefleet Gothic]], most starships have at least one point of Turrets that can hold off torpedoes and bombers. Though most ships only have one or two points of turrets, meaning that on average a Lunar-class cruiser attacked by four bomber squadrons is still going to take three of the attacks.

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== Video Games ==

* In general, any game where the player controls a single fighter (optionally [[Recycled in Space]]) will likely feature large (space)ships with highly ineffective point defenses. Probably because a halfway efficient point defense would send the player back to the loading screen fast and often.

* In the first ''[[Crysis (~~Video Game~~)|Crysis]]'' game, the US fleet isn't the least bit able to defend itself against the slow moving hordes of alien ships. Worse, the fleet gets only a 5 second warning about the approaching ships before they wreck the carrier's flight deck by simply crashing into it. A later cutscene shows many more alien craft in the background, and a nuclear warhead had just been detonated, so [[They Just Didn't Care|they could've easily told us]] the aliens did a [[Zerg Rush]] and 99% were shot down before getting close and have the damage done by the remaining 1%, or that the systems were blinded by the nuke's EMP waves.

* In the first ''[[Crysis (series)|Crysis]]'' game, the US fleet isn't the least bit able to defend itself against the slow moving hordes of alien ships. Worse, the fleet gets only a 5 second warning about the approaching ships before they wreck the carrier's flight deck by simply crashing into it. A later cutscene shows many more alien craft in the background, and a nuclear warhead had just been detonated, so [[They Just Didn't Care|they could've easily told us]] the aliens did a [[Zerg Rush]] and 99% were shot down before getting close and have the damage done by the remaining 1%, or that the systems were blinded by the nuke's EMP waves.

* In the various ''[[Star Wars]]'' space sim games, there are often laser turrets that are more specifically designed for swatting X-wings. They tend to fail horribly at their jobs when you learn how to handle them.

** In the ''[[X-Wing]]'' and ''[[TIE Fighter]]'' games, you can simply jiggle the stick while moving in any direction but directly at a turret to evade all fire -- the [[Frickin' Laser Beams]] move so slowly that the slightest deviation in direction will throw a shot off.

** In the ''[[X Wing]]'' and ''[[TIE Fighter]]'' games, you can simply jiggle the stick while moving in any direction but directly at a turret to evade all fire -- the [[Frickin' Laser Beams]] move so slowly that the slightest deviation in direction will throw a shot off.

** The ''[[Rogue Squadron]]'' games often forced you to directly confront these laser turrets, which is suicidal to do head-on, but if you can get below their firing arc (and they're often on top of hills or on canyon ledges to facilitate this), they're completely helpless.

** ''Battlefront II's'' Space Combat mode avoided player immunity to AA by having the automated turrets of capital ships shoot exploding lasers (don't think about it). This made up for their poor accuracy by making it extremely difficult for small fighters like A-Wings to fly within range of them, lest they run into a flak barrage and explode uselessly.

* Mostly averted in ''Privateer 2'', in which even cargo freighters are at [[Gunship Rescue]] level thanks to their relentless, targeted, and high-powered turret fire. Either you're constantly evading, you get out of range, or you get shredded. Depending on the ship, you might be able to take it out by getting into that blind spot.

* Capital ships in ''[[~~Homeworld (Video Game)|~~Homeworld]]'' almost invariably need escorts against waves of fighters, as they have little or no point defense. This is a deliberate part of the [[Tactical Rock-Paper-Scissors]], and a few capital ships are effective against fighters at the cost of not countering what capital ships normally counter -- Missile Destroyers, for instance, will shred fighter fleets. On the other hand, the Mothership itself is armed with some serious point defenses that can repel anything short of a massed bomber attack.

* Capital ships in ''[[Homeworld]]'' almost invariably need escorts against waves of fighters, as they have little or no point defense. This is a deliberate part of the [[Tactical Rock-Paper-Scissors]], and a few capital ships are effective against fighters at the cost of not countering what capital ships normally counter -- Missile Destroyers, for instance, will shred fighter fleets. On the other hand, the Mothership itself is armed with some serious point defenses that can repel anything short of a massed bomber attack.

** In ''Homeworld Cataclysm'', most of the ships end up subverting this trope. All of the larger capital ships are at least armed with homing energy cannons or precise guns that severely negate the usefulness of fighter squadrons against them. The Somtaaw capital ships carry missile launchers in addition to the rest of their guns, killing off any chance of a serious fighter attack.

*** Cataclysm also brings us a whole new way of averting this trope - the little Sentinel defense pods, which are armed with a single (upgradable) gun. A full dozen of them are needed to fully shield a ship, but when you achieve that the ship's shield itself [[More Dakka|dakkas]] attacking fighters with frightful effectiveness.

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** There are also "[[Lightning Gun|light emitters]]" (they don't emit light; they're just a smaller version of the standard "emitter"). A single blast can eliminate several missiles closeby. Their fire rate is a little slow, though.

** The best way to deal with missiles seems to be is to use a dedicated Wild Weasel destroyer, which attracts most of the enemy missiles toward it while sending the rest back at the enemy (and the enemy won't try to destroy them, as they don't classify as "foe"). Of course, if you want your Wild Weasel to survive the battle (or even the first volley), you better keep a few dedicated PD ships nearby to swat all the missiles before they hit.

* ''[[~~Supreme Commander (Video Game)|~~Supreme Commander]]'' provides an aversion. Between the availability of base-covering shields, artillery emplacements and long range radar, base defenses can do an acceptable job of holding off an attack.

* ''[[Supreme Commander]]'' provides an aversion. Between the availability of base-covering shields, artillery emplacements and long range radar, base defenses can do an acceptable job of holding off an attack.

* While autofiring Point Defense cannons didn't appear until SE4, in the ''[[Space Empires]]'' games point defense cannons will generally rip apart missiles and fighters.

* In ''[[Super Smash Bros Brawl]]'', The Subspace Gunship has enough auto-turrets to literally fill the sky with projectiles.... yet they can't hit the broad side of a barn door. The destruction of the Halberd was implied to be a deliberate action on part of the heroes; once the smaller ships are released, the Gunship's turrets are suddenly slightly less accurate than your average Imperial Stormtrooper. Even Olimar's ship (shown later as barely capable of keeping up with the other ships) has little trouble avoiding the enemy fire.

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* In ''[[Eve Online]]'', larger ships tend to cart around larger weapons. Makes sense, yes? Larger weapon turrets unfortunately track more slowly than smaller ones. This results in battleships that can slug it out with another battleship, but can't manage to pick off the swarms of frigates that will attack because its anti-battleship cannons track too slowly. This can be fixed by having some ships in the fleet outfitted with smaller weapons specifically to deal with the smaller ships, functioning as roving point-defense ships. Often, however, the battleships will simply load up on multiple flights or [[Attack Drone|drones]] to deal with smaller annoyances.

** Even then, there's still the fact that big ships take longer to lock on to targets than small ships. The best defense is to have some smaller ships in your fleet. Any fleet commander worth his salt will ensure this.

* Possible in the [[X (~~Video~~ ~~Game~~)|X-Universe]]. Some ships may have only larger guns that can't track faster fighters or missiles. In X3 the Kha'ak suffer from [[Crippling Overspecialization]] where, while their [[Frickin' Laser Beams|weapons make great point defense]], they don't scale well and their capital ships can't stand up to their peers.

* Possible in the [[X (video game)|X-Universe]]. Some ships may have only larger guns that can't track faster fighters or missiles. In X3 the Kha'ak suffer from [[Crippling Overspecialization]] where, while their [[Frickin' Laser Beams|weapons make great point defense]], they don't scale well and their capital ships can't stand up to their peers.

** With the [[Downloadable Content|Bonus Pack]] [[Game Mod|scripts]] installed, the trope is thoroughly averted for player-owned ships of Commonwealth design. Mosquito Missile Defense uses the otherwise worthless Mosquito missile to intercept incoming ordnance. Capital ships can potentially carry thousands, making for an all but impenetrable missile shield. But the script doesn't work on ships that can't normally fire Mosquitoes, making it useless on [[Squishy Wizard|M7M]] [[Macross Missile Massacre|Missile]] [[Glass Cannon|Frigates]] and anything built by the Terrans.

* As expected from its source material, most battleships in ''[[Super Robot Wars]]'' have terrible accuracy when used against anything besides [[Mecha Mooks]], and basically any boss will freaking laugh at any weapon they'd be hit by except ones that are so huge they have sections of their ship built around them.

* As expected from its source material, most battleships in ''[[Super Robot Wars]]'' have terrible accuracy when used against anything besides [[Mecha-Mooks]], and basically any boss will freaking laugh at any weapon they'd be hit by except ones that are so huge they have sections of their ship built around them.

* The Human Cruiser from ''[[Star Control]]'' has point defense lasers as a secondary weapon to compliment its nuclear missile launcher, but they're only really useful on the interstellar equivalent of peashooters (or possibly [[Cherry Tapping]]). Anything thicker will cruise right through to hit the ship. The Precursor flagship can be outfitted with P.D. lasers with similar properties.

** On the other hand, their PD system absolutely pissed off the Ur-Quan, who use swarms of fighters. And in ''[[Star Control]] 2'', the Orz Marines would have fits trying to get through Cruiser Point Defense, though you have to annoy them pretty bad before they'll attack at all. In most other circumstances though, the Cruiser is better off spamming nukes.

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* ''Gravity Crash'''s levels are strewn with fixed cannons; due to a combination of [[Hero-Tracking Failure|aiming issues]] and ''[[Weak Turret Gun|extreme]]'' [[Weak Turret Gun|vulnerability to your ship's gun]] (they often go down in a single shot), they provide the bad guys practically no defense to speak of.

* Anti missile guns in ''[[Mechwarrior]] 3'' shoot down incoming missiles, if you remember to turn them on. Enemies seem to lack them.

* The [http://deusex.wikia.com/wiki/Aggressive_Defense_System aggressive defence] augmentation of ''[[~~Deus Ex (Video Game)|~~Deus Ex]]'' destroys missiles before they can hit you, at higher levels it can actually hurt enemies by making their rockets explode near them.

* The [http://deusex.wikia.com/wiki/Aggressive_Defense_System aggressive defence] augmentation of ''[[Deus Ex]]'' destroys missiles before they can hit you, at higher levels it can actually hurt enemies by making their rockets explode near them.

* ''[[Dead Space (~~Video~~ ~~Game~~)|Dead Space]]'' has automated asteroid defence guns which are supposed to protect the ship from bits and pieces of the planet it's cracking. It fails, requiring you to manually operate one until it can be rebooted.

* ''[[Dead Space (video game)|Dead Space]]'' has automated asteroid defence guns which are supposed to protect the ship from bits and pieces of the planet it's cracking. It fails, requiring you to manually operate one until it can be rebooted.

* ''[[~~Battlestar Galactica Online (Video Game)|~~Battlestar Galactica Online]]'': Lines are generally bad at targetting small, agile Strikes. Flyswatting is the job of Escorts, but a good Strike pilot can still give them a run for their money.

* ''[[Battlestar Galactica Online]]'': Lines are generally bad at targetting small, agile Strikes. Flyswatting is the job of Escorts, but a good Strike pilot can still give them a run for their money.

* ''[[City of Heroes]]'' has an aversion with the Vanguard Base in the Rikti Warzone. The turrets around the base are level 54, generally Lieutenants and Bosses, are backed up by a pair of level 54 [[Humongous Mecha]], whereas the nearest enemies are, at maximum, level 38. The said, it is played straight during missions involving the Vanguard base, as those selfsame turrets are spawned to the level of the mission, alongside notably more enemies than they can usually successfully take on, and the mecha are taken out before the mission. Similarly, the turrets in the Shadow Shard are never shown firing on anything (because they actually predate the Turrets enemy group).

* Nearly every Core (torso, that is) unit from [[Armored Core]] carried a point-defense unit against incoming missile, from the first game. This explains the barrel-like protrusions from many Cores. Starting from Armored Core 2, shoulder-mounted CIWS systems start to be introduced, from missile, laser and gun-based interception, to simple missile misdirection. Their effectiveness range from "acceptable", "total protection", and "dead weight".

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** Kamikazes were the ultimate recognition that it was impossible to accurately aim a bomb or torpedo under fire from US ships. Turning the aircraft itself into the weapon meant it had to be hard-killed to stop it, and consequently upped the percentage of hits.

*** The main reason that the Kamikaze strategy was deemed a failure was because of the Japanese air force's humanity; they were unwilling to commit more forces to a (literal) [[Suicide Mission]] than absolutely necessary, and squadrons typically sent in one or two planes at a time. Unfortunately for the pilots, this meant that their target ships and escorts had a much easier time picking out a target, so while the ''percentage'' of successful strikes went up, the total number of strikes dropped dramatically.

* Bombers in [[World War II]] such as the American B-17 [[Exactly What It Says On the Tin|Flying Fortress]] were armed to the teeth, with more and more defensive firepower added in later models. Compare the [http://www.aircraftarchaeology.com/B-17B%20Fortress_files/b17b.JPG B Model] to the [http://www.airplane-pictures.net/images/uploaded-images/2008-4/2/12743.jpg G Model]. While formations of these planes could make for very dangerous targets, the preferred Luftwaffe tactic of head-on strafing runs of the formations<ref> Reportedly as terrifying for the German pilots as it was for the American bomber crews</ref>, meant that hitting the fighters with the defensive guns was ''very'' difficult.

* Bombers in [[World War II]] such as the American B-17 [[Exactly What It Says on the Tin|Flying Fortress]] were armed to the teeth, with more and more defensive firepower added in later models. Compare the [http://www.aircraftarchaeology.com/B-17B%20Fortress_files/b17b.JPG B Model] to the [http://www.airplane-pictures.net/images/uploaded-images/2008-4/2/12743.jpg G Model]. While formations of these planes could make for very dangerous targets, the preferred Luftwaffe tactic of head-on strafing runs of the formations<ref> Reportedly as terrifying for the German pilots as it was for the American bomber crews</ref>, meant that hitting the fighters with the defensive guns was ''very'' difficult.

** That said, any German ''[[Gratuitous German|Jagdflieger]]'' who wanted to live a long life always avoided attacking the American bomber formations from ''behind''. Doing so not only reduced the closing speed considerably, but also allowed the bomber crews to present the largest volume of defensive fire. One report of a bomber formation being attacked by Me-262 Schwalbe jet fighters had the planes being helplessly torn apart by the fast moving interceptors, until one hapless German pilot made the mistake of flying at them from behind... he flew into so much defensive heavy machine gun fire that his plane ''[[There Is No Kill Like Overkill|disintegrated.]]''