Power Creep, Power Seep: Difference between revisions

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** This is always a problem in Marvel vs. DC crossovers when it comes to [[Super Speed]] battles. Marvel speedsters rarely move much faster than the speed of sound, while DC speedsters are usually closer to the speed of light, a difference of six orders of magnitude (the difference between you and a jet is two orders of magnitude). Sometimes this difference is [[Hand Wave|ignored]], sometimes it's [[Lampshade Hanging|mocked]], and sometimes it's [[Justified Trope|justified]].

*** Two recent crossover battles shown between [[Quicksilver]] and [[The Flash]] were played for the jokes that they were. The only times Quicksilver was able to land a punch were when [[The Flash]] turned his back to help innocents and, in the later crossover, when [[The Flash]] encountered Quicksilver in the Marvel universe (which apparently has no Speed Force). Sadly, if they had just done the first fight a few years sooner, it would have been an even match (Wally's speed was dropped to Quicksilver level in the years immediately following ''[[Crisis on Infinite Earths]]'').

*** There was actually a [[Shout-Out]] to the enormous disparity in an issue of ''[[Quasar]]''. A cosmic entity had gathered Earth's super-speedsters for a race from Earth to the Moon. At the last minute, ''all'' the contestants got blown past by [[The Flash|an amnesiac man in a tattered red-and-yellow costume]]. (This was back when Barry Allen was still dead, after the ''[[Crisis on Infinite Earths]]''.)

*** There was actually a [[Shout-Out]] to the enormous disparity in an issue of ''[[Quasar (comics)|Quasar]]''. A cosmic entity had gathered Earth's super-speedsters for a race from Earth to the Moon. At the last minute, ''all'' the contestants got blown past by [[The Flash|an amnesiac man in a tattered red-and-yellow costume]]. (This was back when Barry Allen was still dead, after the ''[[Crisis on Infinite Earths]]''.)

** One notorious example of this happened in the Marvel versus DC crossover, where [[Popularity Power|based on a fan poll]], [[Wolverine]] beat [[Lobo]]. Wolverine had bone claws at the time, while Lobo is as powerful as Superman, this should have been impossible. The comic sidestepped the problems by [[Take Our Word for It|not showing the battle]]—in fact the whole thing was less than a page, from the introduction of Lobo to Wolvie standing and dusting off his hands. And all the fighting happened ''behind a bar''. It was later [[Hand Wave|implied]] in Lobo's own comic that the Main Man was paid under the table to throw the fight.

* In one issue of ''Amazing Spider-Man'', [[Spider-Man (Comic Book)|Spider-Man]], who's strong (lifts ten tons) but not one of the big hitters of the [[Marvel Universe]], beat the ''cosmically'' powerful Firelord in a hand-to-hand duel. On comic boards this trope is often named Spider-man vs the Firelord.

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* The ''[[Rogue Trader]]'' and ''[[Deathwatch (game)|Deathwatch]]'' role-playing games are based on the same rules as those of ''[[Dark Heresy]]'', and there are rules for including characters from ''Dark Heresy'' in both systems. In the case of ''Rogue Trader'', this involves boosting the characters from ''Dark Heresy'' to about 1/3rd of their maximum obtainable power in their home rules system. In the case of ''Death Watch'', it involves boosting said characters to a level more powerful than the core ''Dark Heresy'' ruleset has rules for, and using the ''Ascension'' splatbook. In both cases the ''Dark Heresy'' characters are still overall weaker, but far more customizable and specialized.

** Essentially, their stats are lower, true, but they tend to have far, far more raw skill and talent due to ''[[Dark Heresy]]''s very cheap skills and ''Ascension''s cheap paragon talents/skills (essentially a collection of related skills purchased as a package that costs less than the skills combined). And that doesn't count the raw level of influence that these characters can have, which is hard to really quantify. And that doesn't count the Ascended Psychic Powers, which all ''Ascension'' classes can get with the right talents... such as being able to control time, or creating a completely and utterly impenetrable barrier able to withstand all types of damage and prevent all creatures from going through it. Even more mundane ones such as [[Exactly What It Says on the Tin|bloodboil]] or the army-destroying Inferno, or being able to utterly crush and banish daemons with a thought. Likely only the Grey Knights in Daemonhunters have more powerful psychic powers.

* [[Dungeons ~~and~~ Dragons]]: dancing around both sides of [[Linear Warriors, Quadratic Wizards]] problem.

* [[Dungeons & Dragons]]: dancing around both sides of [[Linear Warriors, Quadratic Wizards]] problem.

** Initially Wizards' magic was unable to protect them from as much as a kitten chewing on one's ear, unless the spellcaster is prepared. Leading to magic-users being treated as [[Glass Cannon]] that must be protected by others at all times. In AD&D2 this was "solved" for high levels by buffing ''Stoneskin'' from "stop one attack" to "stay put indefinitely until an attack comes, then stop certain number of attacks". While by the letter of DMG [[Shooting Superman|being unable to harm the opponent]] calls for a Morale check. Still, let's weaken spellcasting disruption, right? 3e comes along, everyone who was complaining about [[Linear Warriors, Quadratic Wizards]] before just bursts in mad laughter, because now it's in fourth power or so. And the spellcasting disruption by attack is a min-max friendly skills check. Priests get the same, on top of having no problems with armor and generally not sucking in melee. Guess where this leads?

** Warriors used to employ the devious tactics of "hit it again, repeat untill one of you falls over", because... [[Padded Sumo Gameplay|there are no other variants]]. AD&D2 sourcebooks introduced styles and other tweaks, but mostly this boils down to flavours/permanent choice of [[Tactical Rock-Paper-Scissors]], so with a few exclusions almost any combat still can be described as: "shoot it with a bow until it comes close, then hit the nearest enemy with a melee weapon while trying to stand between it and the wizard" - and when not, it's thanks to spellcasters. ''Player's Option: Combat and Tactics'' got options that get rid of [[Padded Sumo Gameplay]], up to gain/give ground rules, but PO was rushed and didn't stick. 3e arrives and it's mostly back to square 1. Because feat mechanics mostly turned options into "choose your gimmick" permanent flavours. For some reason this doesn't work too well, so along comes the bright idea: "we don't know how to ''solve'' the problem, so let's ''circumvent'' it: give them a slice of those Quadratic Wizards' pie - [[Magic Knight|Weaboo Fightan Magic]](TM)!" Don't mind "boo! hiss!" sounds. Fast forward to 4e: "wizards are now unlimited, so... let's give W.F.M. to ''everyone''! And use nonsensical 'X times per day' limitations to fence off the obvious problem of spamming it. That's what called 'balance', right?". Well, no. It's the same "give those broken steroids to everyone so they will be equal" idea, only renamed and with extra [[What Do You Mean It Wasn't Made on Drugs?|mushroom]] or ten.

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** A good example comes from [[Super Robot Wars Judgment]] in term of the casts. On one end, you got things like [[Gundam Seed]], [[Blue Comet SPT Layzner]], [[Brain Powered]], and [[Martian Sucessor Nadesico]]. On the other side, you got things like [[Mazinkaiser]], [[Zeorymer]], and [[Tekkaman Blade]](yes, this guy again). The latter part of the cast makes the infamous scene from [[Gundam Seed]] {{spoiler|where Mwu is killed}} pretty awkward because they can simply tank the attack and really likely to survive. And even in the midst of battle, both Zeorymer and Blade has more than enough speed to arrive on time.

** ''[[Another Century's Episode]] 3'' takes a nerf bat to the Shin Getter Robo, again out of pure necessity. However, it's still pretty well in line with how ''SRW'' depicts Super Robots compared to Reals (namely, [[Mighty Glacier|big and slow, but heavily armored and super-strong]]). On the other hand, they left the [[Overman King Gainer]] units alone.

** Many Banpresto's [[Crossover]] games also qualifies: The ''[[Queen's Blade|Spiral Chaos games]]'' gives [[Tekken|Lily]], who is the only character who fights ''barehanded'', moves that seems taken off more from ''[[Fist of the North Star]]'' than ''Tekken''. Justified, since it's the only explanation how she's able to fight against many of the [[Queen's Blade]]'s cast, who uses swords or medieval weapons, or against superpowered beings like [[Guilty Gear|Dizzy]] or people who use guns like [[~~Blaz Blue~~|Noel Vermillion]].

** Many Banpresto's [[Crossover]] games also qualifies: The ''[[Queen's Blade|Spiral Chaos games]]'' gives [[Tekken|Lily]], who is the only character who fights ''barehanded'', moves that seems taken off more from ''[[Fist of the North Star]]'' than ''Tekken''. Justified, since it's the only explanation how she's able to fight against many of the [[Queen's Blade]]'s cast, who uses swords or medieval weapons, or against superpowered beings like [[Guilty Gear|Dizzy]] or people who use guns like [[BlazBlue|Noel Vermillion]].

*** And even in the case of both Dizzy and Noel, it could be [[Hand Wave|handwaved]] that they are trying to avoid using their full power (Dizzy) or in Noel's case, {{spoiler|she's using her humanoid form and not her Mu-12 persona.}}

* Many of the Disney characters suddenly developed [[Implausible Fencing Powers]], magic, or [[I Know Karate|Kung Fu]] of some sort to put them on equal combat ground with the main characters of ''[[Kingdom Hearts]]''. It's slightly jarring (and very awesome) to see Mickey Mouse with a Yoda-like fighting ability while retaining the personality he's had for the the past 50 or 60 years.

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** The Ice Climbers. Everyone else exists in worlds where they could get the abilities or weapons they didn't originally have. Ice Climbers got cool freezing powers just because they were in a crossover.

** Solid Snake can't even jump in ''[[Metal Gear]]'''s gameplay, but in ''Brawl'', he can easily jump three times his height and fly with the assistance of a summoned Cypher (his enemies in his games), not to mention perform elegant suplexes, bend his spine almost all the way back... At least they have his normal jump cover a tiny distance, to show him being "realistic".

** And there's also [[~~Earthbound~~|Ness and Lucas]]; they don't even have their own movesets in ''Brawl''.

** And there's also [[EarthBound|Ness and Lucas]]; they don't even have their own movesets in ''Brawl''.

** Everyone's held to the same swimming/drowning mechanics - even characters who can't swim, or conversely can't drown, such as [[Sonic the Hedgehog|Sonic]] and [[Pokémon|Charizard]] for the former, and ''[[Pokémon|Squirtle]] for the latter.'' At least it takes more for Squirtle to drown than for Charizard, but come on!

** Samus is significantly weakened - she moves very slowly in the air (supposedly this was intentional, albeit via the logic of "her adventures take place in outer space, therefore she gets "floaty" controls because in space there is no gravity!"), and can only fire one blaster shot at a time. At least she does get a melee attack, something sorely lacking from her regular adventures.

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** Other non-flight and/or non-ki attack characters in ''[[Dragonball Z]]: Budokai Tenkaichi'' do this as well, depends of the game. In the first one, everyone flies. in the second one, people who can't fly don't and instead fall down like rocks. In the third game they instead fall down slowly (Which is actually closer to in-series behavior), air jump (This isn't) and you can give them a Potara that allows flying.

** And in a few where Mister Satan/Hercule makes an appearance, he has a jetpack and explosives.

* ''[[~~Little Big Planet~~]]'' got ''[[Metal Gear]] Solid'' themed expansion pack, where Liquid Ocelot's plan is to {{spoiler|flood LBP with pointless trophy levels so that he can be loved}}, and the Metal Gear itself is essentially beaten by a Sackboy with a paintball gun.

* ''[[LittleBigPlanet]]'' got ''[[Metal Gear]] Solid'' themed expansion pack, where Liquid Ocelot's plan is to {{spoiler|flood LBP with pointless trophy levels so that he can be loved}}, and the Metal Gear itself is essentially beaten by a Sackboy with a paintball gun.

* [[Danny Phantom]] always gets the short end of the stick in in the ''[[Nicktoons Unite!]]'' series. ''Nicktoons Unite'' gets around this with a game-long [[Plot Tailored to the Party]] (and even then he had to gain his abilities back), but then came ''Battle for Volcano Island'', where he's stuck to throwing punches and shooting energy blasts. This got even worse in ''Attack of the Toybots'' which, outside of his Master Model areas, limits him to punching and using a goo gun (but so does everyone else) to the point that freaking ''[[Rocko's Modern Life|Rocko]]'' can do as much damage as him. (Though at least that game justifies his weakness: [[Jimmy Neutron|Calamitous]] somehow managed to neutralise his ghost powers while leeching energy off the Ghost Zone to power his game-long [[Eternal Engine]].) And then in ''Globs of Doom'', he can generate temporary duplicates of himself... via gadgetry from the [[Hub Level]], which is in the universe of Volcano Island. (Meanwhile, [[Invader Zim|Dib]] developed implausible punching skills.)

* ''Dengeki Gakuen RPG: Cross of Venus'', being a crossover [[Action RPG]], delivers a nerf bat to everyone and everything from ''[[Shakugan no Shana]]'', ''[[To Aru Majutsu no Index]]'' and ''[[Asura Cryin]]''' as well as to that good ol' psycho angel [[Bludgeoning Angel Dokuro-chan|Dokuro-chan]], and a buffing to just about everything pertaining to ''[[Toradora!]]'' (Yes, even Inko, who is a mook) and ''[[Kino's Journey]]''. And most of the bosses are [[Evil Knockoff]]s of various characters, explaining their weakness (or in a few cases, strength) compared to the people they replicate.

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** Another ''[[Soul Series|Soul Calibur]]'' example, [[God of War|Kratos]] is in the PSP version. Naturally he's pretending he can't kill them all <s>with one punch</s> by repeatedly punching them in the face as he did with Hercules and {{spoiler|Zeus}} in ''God of War III''.

* This does not exist in ''[[Mobile Suit Gundam Climax UC|Gundam Climax UC]]''. If you try to take on Char's Counter Attack stage with a GM, expect the enemy grunts to take several shots before dying. And expect them to take off half your health bar with every shot.

* It does, however, exist in just about every other ''[[Gundam]]'' crossover game. Especially noticeable in those that contain the [[Turn A Gundam ~~(Anime)~~|Turn A and Turn X]], both of which, canonically speaking, should be able to turn any other mobile suit into dust (literally). Expect to see them beaten by such things as the RX-78-2 or Char's Zaku II.

* It does, however, exist in just about every other ''[[Gundam]]'' crossover game. Especially noticeable in those that contain the [[Turn A Gundam|Turn A and Turn X]], both of which, canonically speaking, should be able to turn any other mobile suit into dust (literally). Expect to see them beaten by such things as the RX-78-2 or Char's Zaku II.

* Although the storylines try to keep everything making sense (Yukari was just messing around, Sanae wasn't taking Cirno seriously, etc.), this is a continuous problem in the ''[[Touhou]]'' fighting [[Gaiden Game]]s, with all of the playable characters (twenty, as of ''Hisoutensoku'') relatively equal in gameplay despite their ''gargantuan'' power differences. The best example of Power Creep is Cirno, a little ice fairy that, while suggested to be fairly powerful for the setting, has to seriously struggle to hold her own against one of the protagonists is a fair fight. And the cast is taken almost entirely from characters on the protagonist's level or higher. On the other end of the scale is Yukari, the boss of the series' only Phantasm stage and generally considered to be the single most powerful character. Nothing stops you from beating up Yukari with Cirno aside from needing to link ''Hisoutensoku'' and ''Hisouten''.

** Then again, justified by the existence of the spellcard system, which forbids them from using their true powers and instead forces them to rely on lesser abilities, balanced against each other. There's still a difference, but with good enough tactics it is possible for weaker characters to win (as evidenced in Imperishable Night, since protagonists are equivalent to level 4 bosses, and they do take down level 6 bosses regularly).

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** And taking in consideration the untapped potential of the spells that she carries with her. Sure, she can't match the raw power of a "befriending" blast or cast the rage of demons. But can, for example: {{spoiler|[[Elemental Powers|Master the elements]], [[Barrier Warrior|create nigh-impenetrable barriers]] [[Power Nullifier|also capable of]] [[Anti-Magic|dispelling functional magic and seals]], [[Dreaming of Things to Come|dreamseeing]], [[Super Speed|cast superspeed]], [[Super Strength|strength]], [[I Know Karate|fighting skills]], [[Absurdly Sharp Blade|a sword that can cut almost everything]], [[Reality Warper|alter reality]] and wipe things out of existence ....and that's just the tip of the iceberg}} she doesn't attack on the same pattern as the other Magical girls but has an unmatched versatility and a good level of control (just remember, {{spoiler|she stops a snowstorm and safely defrosts a small city within a matter of seconds, minutes perhaps}}).

* In ''[[Spider-Man: Shattered Dimensions]]'', Amazing Spider-Man takes out [[The Juggernaut]] in a fistfight. It's [[Handwaved]] by suggesting that {{spoiler|the power of the [[MacGuffin|Tablet Fragment]] is messing with Juggy's Gem of Cyttorak-given power.}}

* Various characters in the ''[[Mario ~~and~~ Sonic At ~~The~~ Olympic Games]]'' series. For example, in his main series, [[Sonic the Hedgehog]] is referred to as "the world's fastest supersonic hedgehog", capable of running above the speed of sound without breaking a sweat. In the Olympic Games series, though he is still one of the fastest characters in terms of top speed, his other attributes are reduced to better balance him with the other characters.

* Various characters in the ''[[Mario & Sonic at the Olympic Games]]'' series. For example, in his main series, [[Sonic the Hedgehog]] is referred to as "the world's fastest supersonic hedgehog", capable of running above the speed of sound without breaking a sweat. In the Olympic Games series, though he is still one of the fastest characters in terms of top speed, his other attributes are reduced to better balance him with the other characters.

* The ''[[Super Mario Bros.]]'' spin-offs have this a lot. In the main series, Yoshi can only run faster than Luigi when someone is riding him. If not, he's just as fast as Mario, which is still [[Super Speed]], but not as fast as Luigi. Mario, in the main series, is perfectly capable of lifting a castle and throwing it to the side, but is the [[Jack of All Stats]] in the spin-offs.

* ''[[Defense of the Ancients]]'' does this with a lot of the crossover heroes. One of the most notable examples, [[Slayers|Lina Inverse]], can ''unmake creation'' with her Laguna Blade, which only does 1250 damage in-game. (Which, to be fair, is ''a lot of damage''.)

* In ''[[Asura's Wrath]]'', one DLC has Asura facing off against ''[[Street Fighter]]'''s very own Ryu and Akuma {{spoiler|and their respective [[Super-Powered Evil Side]] Evil Ryu and Oni}}. It's a pretty cool idea, except for the fact that, in his own game, Asura is so overwhemlingly powerful that's he's up there with [[Capcom]] characters like those of the ''[[Darkstalkers]]'' series or the ''[[Okami]]'' series as one of the strongest characters made with Capcom's name attached to it.

** In said DLC Ryu survives being punched all the way to the moon from Earth, Evil Ryu moves a mountain sized landmass {{spoiler|and the battle with Akuma/Oni destroys the moon!}}

* ''[[Magical Girl Lyrical Nanoha As Portable]]: The Gears of Destiny'' threw in various justifications to explain why characters from different currently running installments of the franchise have roughly the same power levels when they shouldn't. Specifically, the [[Time Travel]] caused a malfunction on [[Nanoha Force|Thoma's]] Tome of the Silver Cross to explain why he can't just [[Anti-Magic]] his way through the unprepared cast, [[Nanoha Vivid|Vivio and Einhart]] are being greatly assisted by their [[Amplifier Artifact|Devices]] to explain why they could fly here when they couldn't in their series, and [[Magical Girl Lyrical Nanoha A's|Reinforce Eins]] is [[Your Days Are Numbered|slowly dying]] by this point to explain the [[nerf]]ing she got in the game.

* ''[[Magical Girl Lyrical Nanoha A's Portable]]: The Gears of Destiny'' threw in various justifications to explain why characters from different currently running installments of the franchise have roughly the same power levels when they shouldn't. Specifically, the [[Time Travel]] caused a malfunction on [[Nanoha Force|Thoma's]] Tome of the Silver Cross to explain why he can't just [[Anti-Magic]] his way through the unprepared cast, [[Nanoha Vivid|Vivio and Einhart]] are being greatly assisted by their [[Amplifier Artifact|Devices]] to explain why they could fly here when they couldn't in their series, and [[Magical Girl Lyrical Nanoha A's|Reinforce Eins]] is [[Your Days Are Numbered|slowly dying]] by this point to explain the [[nerf]]ing she got in the game.

* In the third ''[[Warriors Orochi]]'' game, Ryu Hayabusa of ''[[Ninja Gaiden]]'' joins the cast in their quest to defeat the Hydra. He accompanies them as they travel through different moments in time when the Hydra strike desperately trying to discover a way to beat the seemingly unstoppable monster. Thing is though Ryu in his own game series has fought and beaten numerous giant abominations all by himself and the Hydra really shouldn't have been that big a deal for him to handle by his lonesome.