Satan Is Good: Difference between revisions

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{{trope}}
{{trope}}
[[File:Lucifer_3.jpg|link=Shin Megami Tensei|right|Lucifer is here to save the day and [[Bishonen|look gorgeous]]]]
[[File:Lucifer_3.jpg|link=Shin Megami Tensei|frame|Lucifer is here to save the day and [[Bishonen|look gorgeous]]]]




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A [[Perspective Flip]] as applied on a cosmic level, and a natural corollary to [[God Is Evil]].
A [[Perspective Flip]] as applied on a cosmic level, and a natural corollary to [[God Is Evil]].


You know the story: a long time ago, there was a conflict between the [[Powers That Be]]. The [[God|good guys]] won, and the bad guys got to suffer (a popular misconception would be to rule) in [[Hell]] instead. But it could be you're not getting the whole story. Maybe [[Satan|Old Scratch]] (or his in-world counterpart, [[Crystal Dragon Jesus|thinly-veiled]] or [[Hijacked By Jesus|not]]) has been [[Wrongly Accused]]. Maybe his loss in the [[Rage Against the Heavens|war with God/the gods]] was the original [[Downer Ending]], and the [[God Is Evil|bastards]] who ''did'' win have been [[Writtenbythe Winners|tarring him with the propaganda brush]] ever since. Wouldn't ''that'' be a [[Mind Screw]]?
You know the story: a long time ago, there was a conflict between the [[Powers That Be]]. The [[God|good guys]] won, and the bad guys got to suffer (a popular misconception would be to rule) in [[Hell]] instead. But it could be you're not getting the whole story. Maybe [[Satan|Old Scratch]] (or his in-world counterpart, [[Crystal Dragon Jesus|thinly-veiled]] or [[Hijacked By Jesus|not]]) has been [[Wrongly Accused]]. Maybe his loss in the [[Rage Against the Heavens|war with God/the gods]] was the original [[Downer Ending]], and the [[God Is Evil|bastards]] who ''did'' win have been [[Written By the Winners|tarring him with the propaganda brush]] ever since. Wouldn't ''that'' be a [[Mind Screw]]?


Another variation is that [[God]] isn't necessarily ''evil''; he and [[Satan]] may just have [[Creative Differences]]. Or maybe [[Neglectful Precursors|God]] just doesn't [[The Gods Must Be Lazy|care]]. It's even possible that he and [[Satan]] are actually good buddies. In these versions, if the reasons behind it are mentioned at all, [[Satan]]'s bad reputation may be chalked up to misinterpretation on the part of [[Humans Are Bastards|mankind]]; particularly if he and [[God]] don't really have anything against each other. It could even be that the entire "warring angels" part never really happened. "Demonizing" the, well, demons could be the work of a [[Corrupt Church]].
Another variation is that [[God]] isn't necessarily ''evil''; he and [[Satan]] may just have [[Creative Differences]]. Or maybe [[Neglectful Precursors|God]] just doesn't [[The Gods Must Be Lazy|care]]. It's even possible that he and [[Satan]] are actually good buddies. In these versions, if the reasons behind it are mentioned at all, [[Satan]]'s bad reputation may be chalked up to misinterpretation on the part of [[Humans Are Bastards|mankind]]; particularly if he and [[God]] don't really have anything against each other. It could even be that the entire "warring angels" part never really happened. "Demonizing" the, well, demons could be the work of a [[Corrupt Church]].
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** His appearance in the ''[[The Sandman (Comic Book)|Sandman]]'' is more ambiguous. His first appearance seems rather standard Lord of Damnation, but his later appearances show him as a mostly neutral force in things, trying to live his own life. {{spoiler|Now that he's abandoned Hell. His rant about people choosing to come to Hell and their lies about him stealing souls pissing him off also made him far more sympathetic, if not necessarily good.}} Also, he has style. And admits that the sunset is fantastic. [[What Do You Mean It's Not Awesome?]]
** His appearance in the ''[[The Sandman (Comic Book)|Sandman]]'' is more ambiguous. His first appearance seems rather standard Lord of Damnation, but his later appearances show him as a mostly neutral force in things, trying to live his own life. {{spoiler|Now that he's abandoned Hell. His rant about people choosing to come to Hell and their lies about him stealing souls pissing him off also made him far more sympathetic, if not necessarily good.}} Also, he has style. And admits that the sunset is fantastic. [[What Do You Mean It's Not Awesome?]]
** [[Neil Gaiman]] tends to portray Lucifer's Fall as all part of God's plan in his works. Albeit a plan poor Lucifer was never let in on...
** [[Neil Gaiman]] tends to portray Lucifer's Fall as all part of God's plan in his works. Albeit a plan poor Lucifer was never let in on...
* The [[Satan]] figure of [[J Michael Straczynski (Creator)|J Michael Straczynski]]'s ''[[Midnight Nation]]'' is not quite good but rather an [[Anti-Villain]] who works at undoing creation because of what he sees as the needless suffering and misery of those in it, and because God has refused to allow criticism of this.
* The [[Satan]] figure of [[J. Michael Straczynski (Creator)|J Michael Straczynski]]'s ''[[Midnight Nation]]'' is not quite good but rather an [[Anti-Villain]] who works at undoing creation because of what he sees as the needless suffering and misery of those in it, and because God has refused to allow criticism of this.
* In ''Crimson'', Satan is the only one of the angels who maintains a close relationship with God. It's implied that the other angels have become so full of themselves that they can't recognize God for who he really is. God and Satan have creative differences but team up to manipulate the other angels into achieving mutual goals for each other.
* In ''Crimson'', Satan is the only one of the angels who maintains a close relationship with God. It's implied that the other angels have become so full of themselves that they can't recognize God for who he really is. God and Satan have creative differences but team up to manipulate the other angels into achieving mutual goals for each other.
* In ''[[Proposition Player]]'', Hell Mary points out that the "other side" rushed their book through production without letting her side make a point for them, and asks Joey if he could really picture his friends in heaven, kowtowing to the big guy and trying to outdo each other at telling Him how great he is. She is also savvy enough to level with Joey and, later, {{spoiler|switches allegiance and joins his group when he decides to become a big player.}} Her celestial counterpart, meanwhile, is a huge jerk who alternately tries to buy off the souls or threaten Joey passive-agressively, and makes no secret of what a misogynistic, power-abusing, sociopathic asshole he is. (He also doesn't realize that intimidation doesn't work on a cynical bastard like Joey.)
* In ''[[Proposition Player]]'', Hell Mary points out that the "other side" rushed their book through production without letting her side make a point for them, and asks Joey if he could really picture his friends in heaven, kowtowing to the big guy and trying to outdo each other at telling Him how great he is. She is also savvy enough to level with Joey and, later, {{spoiler|switches allegiance and joins his group when he decides to become a big player.}} Her celestial counterpart, meanwhile, is a huge jerk who alternately tries to buy off the souls or threaten Joey passive-agressively, and makes no secret of what a misogynistic, power-abusing, sociopathic asshole he is. (He also doesn't realize that intimidation doesn't work on a cynical bastard like Joey.)
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** Jewish folklore also has Ashmodeus, the demon king (and a separate character from the above). He is presented as a malevolent tempter, but he's also kind of a [[Punch Clock Villain]]. When not "doing his thing", he spends his free time studying Torah and in several stories, he comes across as something of a [[Noble Demon]].
** Jewish folklore also has Ashmodeus, the demon king (and a separate character from the above). He is presented as a malevolent tempter, but he's also kind of a [[Punch Clock Villain]]. When not "doing his thing", he spends his free time studying Torah and in several stories, he comes across as something of a [[Noble Demon]].
** Even in modern Christianity, it is established that Satan punishes bad people who have done bad things on earth for eternity. Isn't that... kind of... a wholly righteous activity?
** Even in modern Christianity, it is established that Satan punishes bad people who have done bad things on earth for eternity. Isn't that... kind of... a wholly righteous activity?
*** Simply put, no. The [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Problem_of_Hell Problem of Hell] is that Hell, as lay persons understand it, is extremely difficult to square with a good and just God. According to this line of thought, no amount of human evil is worthy of ''eternal'' and unremitting punishment and Hell is impossible to reconcile with God's omnibenevolence. Others argue torture is always unjust as a punishment. A Satan who runs the "pop-culture" Hell is a [[Complete Monster]], like a prison warden who torments all his inmates mercilessly, only Satan is in a prison where there is no chance for rest, succor, mercy, escape, pardon, liberation, or death. Sooner or later a sinner's suffering in Hell would be a mockery of justice, no matter how evil they were on earth. Satan ''willingly'' inflicting such agony would be evil beyond measure. God allowing this would be a cosmic-sized perversion of justice. Now, if God decreed such punishments, there is [[God Is Evil|a trope for that]]. [[The Other Wiki]] can introduce a few of the arguments and discussions about the Problem of Hell, including various religious answers.
*** Simply put, no. The [[wikipedia:Problem of Hell|Problem of Hell]] is that Hell, as lay persons understand it, is extremely difficult to square with a good and just God. According to this line of thought, no amount of human evil is worthy of ''eternal'' and unremitting punishment and Hell is impossible to reconcile with God's omnibenevolence. Others argue torture is always unjust as a punishment. A Satan who runs the "pop-culture" Hell is a [[Complete Monster]], like a prison warden who torments all his inmates mercilessly, only Satan is in a prison where there is no chance for rest, succor, mercy, escape, pardon, liberation, or death. Sooner or later a sinner's suffering in Hell would be a mockery of justice, no matter how evil they were on earth. Satan ''willingly'' inflicting such agony would be evil beyond measure. God allowing this would be a cosmic-sized perversion of justice. Now, if God decreed such punishments, there is [[God Is Evil|a trope for that]]. [[The Other Wiki]] can introduce a few of the arguments and discussions about the Problem of Hell, including various religious answers.
* The [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yazidi Yazidis], a religious minority in western Iran, call the chief angel in charge of running the world on God's orders the Peacock Angel, Melek Tawuse. They consider him an intermediary between humanity and God. They don't even believe in [[Fallen Angel|Fallen Angels]], considering evil to be entirely the result of human misbehavior. However, owing to a Yazidi myth about Melek Tawuse that closely resembles the Muslim myth of Iblis/Shaitan's rebellion against God<ref>In the Muslim myth, God orders Iblis to bow down to Adam, and he refuses, starting the Rebellion of the fallen Djinn. In the Yazidi myth, God orders Melek Tawuse never to bow to anyone except God, then tests his obedience by ordering all the angels to bow to Adam. Only Tawuse passes the test by ''not'' bowing to a being less than God, earning him his place as the lead angel.</ref>, they are [[Did Not Do the Research|very frequently]] [[Sadly Mythtaken|accused of]] [[Religion of Evil|worshipping Satan]] by people with a [[One Myth to Rule Them All]] mentality.
* The [[wikipedia:Yazidi|Yazidis]], a religious minority in western Iran, call the chief angel in charge of running the world on God's orders the Peacock Angel, Melek Tawuse. They consider him an intermediary between humanity and God. They don't even believe in [[Fallen Angel|Fallen Angels]], considering evil to be entirely the result of human misbehavior. However, owing to a Yazidi myth about Melek Tawuse that closely resembles the Muslim myth of Iblis/Shaitan's rebellion against God<ref>In the Muslim myth, God orders Iblis to bow down to Adam, and he refuses, starting the Rebellion of the fallen Djinn. In the Yazidi myth, God orders Melek Tawuse never to bow to anyone except God, then tests his obedience by ordering all the angels to bow to Adam. Only Tawuse passes the test by ''not'' bowing to a being less than God, earning him his place as the lead angel.</ref>, they are [[Did Not Do the Research|very frequently]] [[Sadly Mythtaken|accused of]] [[Religion of Evil|worshipping Satan]] by people with a [[One Myth to Rule Them All]] mentality.
* [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Church_Of_Satan Anton LaVey's Church of Satan], and Modern Satanism in general. Modern Satanists like LaVey don't believe in a literal Satan, but consider him to be a symbol. In his later writings, LaVey implied that God might very well exist, but if he does, he's an [[Jerkass Gods|asshole]].
* [[wikipedia:Church Of Satan|Anton LaVey's Church of Satan]], and Modern Satanism in general. Modern Satanists like LaVey don't believe in a literal Satan, but consider him to be a symbol. In his later writings, LaVey implied that God might very well exist, but if he does, he's an [[Jerkass Gods|asshole]].
** There's also [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theistic_Satanism Traditional Satanism], which does believe in a literal Satan. Their view is that Satan is the one who really wants what's best for them, or that he simply wants them to think for themselves (most well-known example being the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil).
** There's also [[wikipedia:Theistic Satanism|Traditional Satanism]], which does believe in a literal Satan. Their view is that Satan is the one who really wants what's best for them, or that he simply wants them to think for themselves (most well-known example being the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil).
* There was a group called the [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luciferianism Luciferians] that was persecuted by the Catholic Church as a heretical sect during the Middle Ages. As with this trope, the Luciferians believed that eating from the Tree of Knowledge of good and evil was a positive thing, and that Lucifer was the noble Creator opposing an evil and repressive god who had better press. They never worshiped evil or performed dark sacrificial rituals the way Satanists in contemporary and modern media were/are supposed to do. There are also modern day Luciferians who believe the same thing.
* There was a group called the [[wikipedia:Luciferianism|Luciferians]] that was persecuted by the Catholic Church as a heretical sect during the Middle Ages. As with this trope, the Luciferians believed that eating from the Tree of Knowledge of good and evil was a positive thing, and that Lucifer was the noble Creator opposing an evil and repressive god who had better press. They never worshiped evil or performed dark sacrificial rituals the way Satanists in contemporary and modern media were/are supposed to do. There are also modern day Luciferians who believe the same thing.
* In [[Classical Mythology]], Prometheus subversively gives the gods' protected knowledge of fire to humanity, not unlike the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge of good and evil offered by the evil serpent in [[The Bible]]. When the myth first appeared in [[Hesiod]]'s ''[[Theogony (Literature)|Theogony]]'', Zeus was a wise and just god who sentenced Prometheus to eternal suffering, while the Titan Prometheus was to blame for the suffering of humanity. ''[[Prometheus Bound (Theatre)|Prometheus Bound]]'' turns this around, making [[God Is Evil|Zeus a cruel tyrant]] and Prometheus the benefactor of humanity's rise to civilization ([[Older Than Feudalism]]).
* In [[Classical Mythology]], Prometheus subversively gives the gods' protected knowledge of fire to humanity, not unlike the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge of good and evil offered by the evil serpent in [[The Bible]]. When the myth first appeared in [[Hesiod]]'s ''[[Theogony (Literature)|Theogony]]'', Zeus was a wise and just god who sentenced Prometheus to eternal suffering, while the Titan Prometheus was to blame for the suffering of humanity. ''[[Prometheus Bound (Theatre)|Prometheus Bound]]'' turns this around, making [[God Is Evil|Zeus a cruel tyrant]] and Prometheus the benefactor of humanity's rise to civilization ([[Older Than Feudalism]]).
** The suffering of humanity was blamed on [[Schmuck Bait|Pandora]], not Prometheus.
** The suffering of humanity was blamed on [[Schmuck Bait|Pandora]], not Prometheus.
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[[Category:Older Than Feudalism]]
[[Category:Older Than Feudalism]]
[[Category:Satan Is Good]]
[[Category:Satan Is Good]]
[[Category:Trope]]
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