Star Trek (film)/Headscratchers: Difference between revisions

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********* Not what I heard. Zoe Saldana (Uhura) talked about the skirts, saying she personally would've liked them to be longer but that they added a youthful touch and brought back the whole 60's skimpy outfit thing and that it was a necessary addition. See it [http://www.hulu.com/watch/71293/access-hollywood-zoe-saldana-and-karl-urban-talk-star-trek here] at about 3:40.

********** But that doesn't have anything to do with the uniform styles in TOS! Zoe Saldana wasn't even ''born'' then!

*********** [[Timey Wimey Ball]]!

*********** [[Timey-Wimey Ball]]!

** Point of interest, in the movies, only Uhura wore the skirt with the new uniforms, all the female crew members wore pants. Its probably like modern military dress uniforms, where you get the choice of what type of uniform you want to wear, just as long as it looks professional, and the 23rd century is experiencing a call back to short skirts and old styled hair styles.

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***** The answer to that question is actually very simple. A clone is not made - the matter is broken down into subatomic particles, those same particles are beamed to the destination, then reassembled into the original configuration. So it's the same object, person or creature, it's just been taken apart then put back together again.

****** Really? Tell that to Thomas Riker.

****** The troper above you said "perfect replica", implying it's a copy. In any case it's a [[Hand Wave]] that started because they didn't have the budget for shuttles. [[~~Bellisarios~~ Maxim|Best not to examine it took closely]].

****** The troper above you said "perfect replica", implying it's a copy. In any case it's a [[Hand Wave]] that started because they didn't have the budget for shuttles. [[Bellisario's Maxim|Best not to examine it took closely]].

**** Tell that to the Vulcan serial killer from ''Deep Space Nine'''s "Field of Fire", who put a mini-transporter onto his rifle and had the bullets preserve their velocity, allowing him to shoot people through walls.

****** While real world theories suggest that if a real transporter were invented, it would work by creating a replica of the original person, that isn't how it works on Trek. In Trek, the person/thing being transported is broken down into subatomic particles, physically moved from one site to another, and reassembled into the same person/thing. There are two things that support that fact. The first is that if they were merely creating a clone, then beaming someone onto a ship through shields wouldn't be a problem. They could simply scan the person, destroy them, and the transporter pad would create the replica. But, since they are physically moving the subatomic particles of the person from one place to another, they can't (usually) move those particles through the shields. The second thing that shows this is the episode of TNG where Barclay was seeing lifeforms in the transporter beam while transporting. The effects of the transporter beam didn't represent one person being destroyed and a clone being created. The effects were consistent with the physical matter of a person being moved through space.<br /><br />Also, as far as how Sulu/Kirk weren't turned into a smear on the pad, that's easy. The transporter operator compensates for motion, and when the person is beamed, they appear stationary on the pad. If the situation with Sulu/Kirk had been optimal, then Chekhov could have had them appear laying on the pad, instead of a foot above it. However, conditions weren't optimal. While it is probably relatively easy by then to compensate for the ship's motion, it's probably uncommon to have to add in compensation for a person (much less two) in free fall, and would likely take a little longer. However, the free fall wasn't eve the major issue, and under even slightly better circumstances, Chekhov probably could have managed the transport in his sleep. The issue Chekhov had was that the gravitational field of the planet was in flux, and rapidly changing. That was what he had to compensate for. As far as the lack of pad smear, once Chekhov got the lock, the transporter worked normally... it disassembled Sulu/Kirk, moved their subatomic particles to the pad, compensated for motion and the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle, and reassembled them, relatively motionless. The only reason they hit the pad was because they were reassembled a foot above it, thereby falling, and possibly a little because Chekhov may not have had time to completely compensate for their free fall, so they may have still had SOME downward motion, however their velocity wasn't nearly as much as it had been during the free fall.

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*** Just because they have some formula that allows them to transwarp beam, doesn't mean it's safe. Scotty ended up in the coolant system, and Spock been a fraction of a meter further off, they could have ended up embedded in the tube itself, in a wall, or in the deck. For all we know, they got REALLY lucky that they didn't, and it was only due to Spock's intelligence that he was able to get them there as safe as he did. Some random, normal, human operator would not have been able to plug in all the variables for the formula (ship's speed, position, etc) to make it work. Even planet to planet, there are variables that have to be accounted for. So Spock could do it (and was lucky to an extent), they could beam them from a ship standing relatively still to another ship standing relatively still (Enterprise to Narada), but it is probably a very unsafe thing to try as a regular occurance. Also, being as their mission is to "explore strange, new worlds", they couldn't very well beam onto a planet they'd never been to, not knowing anything about it (air, water, temperature, etc...).

**** That particular transport had certain parameters that could easily be simplified if we're talking planet to another planet. Safely dropping into the middle of a ship obviously being one, could readily make a cleared out space with an order of magnitude more wiggle room. Especially since they had to drop into somewhere lightly populated to prevent immediate detection, and thus had to target a specific region of the ship. The fact Enterprise was going at warp and course corrections (due to various gravitational bodies along the way) happen all the time is another. How were they even tracking Enterprise for that matter? And if they were, what is the accuracy and tolerances of those devices? All would be expected to be improved from even nuTrek 2250's (especially a backwater listening post deep in Fed space)to the TNG era at least.

** Consider how much of the future we have to play with. Spock Prime comes from about twenty years after the end of Voyager. Scotty stumbled into the mid-24th century in his late 70s, in a time when humans living to 175 was common. Scotty had the time and the technology to solve the problem he may have tinkered with his whole life. As for why this may well [[Forgotten Phlebotinum|never show up again]], have you ever read something that made perfect sense, then come back to it later with little understanding of why it made sense? He'll definitely remember the targeting breakthrough, but a few of the simpler details he hadn't worked out yet [[No Plans No Prototype No Backup|may be lost for years]]. Also, it's hardly the safest way to travel, due to not being able to pinpoint where you end up at your target. Scotty just half-drowned and nearly got turned into Aberdeen Soup. He could just as easily have been materialized half-in a wall.

** Consider how much of the future we have to play with. Spock Prime comes from about twenty years after the end of Voyager. Scotty stumbled into the mid-24th century in his late 70s, in a time when humans living to 175 was common. Scotty had the time and the technology to solve the problem he may have tinkered with his whole life. As for why this may well [[Forgotten Phlebotinum|never show up again]], have you ever read something that made perfect sense, then come back to it later with little understanding of why it made sense? He'll definitely remember the targeting breakthrough, but a few of the simpler details he hadn't worked out yet [[No Plans, No Prototype, No Backup|may be lost for years]]. Also, it's hardly the safest way to travel, due to not being able to pinpoint where you end up at your target. Scotty just half-drowned and nearly got turned into Aberdeen Soup. He could just as easily have been materialized half-in a wall.

** Given that Scotty was suspended in a transporter for 75 years, he was still likely alive in 2387, and possibly only recently (i.e. post-''[[Star Trek Nemesis (Film)|Nemesis]]'') discovered the transwarp beaming formula.

* More new film stuff: {{spoiler|exactly how does the destruction of Vulcan reduce the Vulcan population of the galaxy to -- what was it? 11,000? "Endangered species" my *** . Does this technologically advanced space-faring civilization not have, like, colonies? And what about Romulus in the 24th Century? No colonies there, either? Does this "alternate continuity" really expect me to believe that vast political entities called the Romulan Star Empire and the United Federation of Planets never got around colonizing any of the systems under their control?}}

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****** But if they'd started handing out captaincies left and right at the end of the episode, even giving one to Wesley would have made more sense, both because he was a commissioned officer and because he'd been on a starship infinitely longer than New Coke Kirk.

****** That's right--if saving the day let's you skip through the ranks, then make way for Captain Wesley!

****** Then you have to factor in how this plan revolved around a non-graduate of Starfleet Academy who gained access to the ship on illegitimate grounds and who had been ejected from the crew by his commanding officer on charges of attacking his vessel's crew, verbally assaulting said officer in a blatant attempt to get him to withdraw from a leadership position, thus allowing ''himself'' to take the position and thereby order everyone to completely disregard the Federation's orders and send his sole ship (crewed by a skeleton crew of new cadets) directly against the aggressor, with his only advantages being a clever new transportation technique, the "owner" of the enemy's [[Phlebotinum]], and [[~~Its~~ Personal|it being personal]]. And it being ''the sole reason the Earth survived''. At this point, we can safely say that Kirk's promotion to captaincy is most influenced by ''their being in an over-the-top action movie''.

****** Then you have to factor in how this plan revolved around a non-graduate of Starfleet Academy who gained access to the ship on illegitimate grounds and who had been ejected from the crew by his commanding officer on charges of attacking his vessel's crew, verbally assaulting said officer in a blatant attempt to get him to withdraw from a leadership position, thus allowing ''himself'' to take the position and thereby order everyone to completely disregard the Federation's orders and send his sole ship (crewed by a skeleton crew of new cadets) directly against the aggressor, with his only advantages being a clever new transportation technique, the "owner" of the enemy's [[Phlebotinum]], and [[It's Personal|it being personal]]. And it being ''the sole reason the Earth survived''. At this point, we can safely say that Kirk's promotion to captaincy is most influenced by ''their being in an over-the-top action movie''.

*** Unless countermanded by orders from higher up, a captain is effectively ''God''. Any lawful order he gives has to be obeyed, on pain of court-martial, such as ''promoting Kirk to first officer''. Ejecting someone from the ship ''isn't'' a reasonable course of action, since without Spock Prime's assistance Kirk very well might've died. Spock was no doubt acting ''just'' within the confines of Starfleet regulations. Also, Kirk was under advice from Spock Prime himself. If what's basically an older and wiser version of a guy you know tells you the "present" him is unfit for duty, you believe him. As for the plan, joining the fleet would've wasted time, and even if the fleet believed them and made it, they probably would've gotten killed. Chasing the Narada ''was'' their best bet.

*** But if Kirk was effectively captain when he was going after Nero, wouldn't Spock have been effectively captain when he threw Kirk off the ship? And if Spock was relieved of duty for attacking Kirk, why wasn't Kirk relieved of duty for attacking the security men?

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** Maybe that changed by the twenty-third century or maybe McCoy screwed up. Or maybe "your prized colt" doesn't sound [[Rule of Cool|as cool]] as "your prized stallion".

** If it was intentional, it's definitely an application of the [[Rule of Cool]]. Kirk's supposed to be a stallion or [[Bill and Teds Excellent Adventure|(Stallyn!)]], not a colt.

** [[Beam Me Up Scotty|Damnit]], he's a doctor, not an equestrian.

** [[Beam Me Up, Scotty|Damnit]], he's a doctor, not an equestrian.

*** To the above troper, that quote is made of more win than James T. Kirk. Well, not really, but pretty close.

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* There's some major Phlebotinum Contradictions in the new film surrounding how transporters interact with shields. The hard line in standard canon is that you cannot beam to or from a ship that has its shields up; but the ''Enterprise'' engages transporters during several combat situations (once above Vulcan, and again in the final battle when Scotty retrieves Kirk, Spock and Pike). The only possible answers are that 1) the shields were not up on the ''Enterprise'' or the ''Narada''; 2) there ''are'' no shields (doubtful, since the ''Narada'' at least should have brought theirs from the "mainline" canon), or 3) you ''can'' beam through shields. Which works, since this is a reboot. But [[JJ Abrams]], could you at least mention that on screen?

** Late in the TNG era Federation ships develop the ability to beam through their own shields. But it doesn't make sense in TOS era. However JJ Abrams isn't a former trek fan and might have only had experience with late TNG era shows where you can.

*** But that's the thing: even in TNG, you can't. It was O'Brien taking advantage of [[Applied Phlebotinum]] ("'seams' in their shields") and, if you want to be technical, beaming ''around'' the shields, not through. Plus, he [[No Plans No Prototype No Backup|never did it again]], so it's not like this became a widespread technique. Oh well, I don't know why I'm bothering. This is ''Star Trek'': when have they ever let canon be important to storytelling?

*** But that's the thing: even in TNG, you can't. It was O'Brien taking advantage of [[Applied Phlebotinum]] ("'seams' in their shields") and, if you want to be technical, beaming ''around'' the shields, not through. Plus, he [[No Plans, No Prototype, No Backup|never did it again]], so it's not like this became a widespread technique. Oh well, I don't know why I'm bothering. This is ''Star Trek'': when have they ever let canon be important to storytelling?

*** TNG ''era'' not TNG itself. Federation ships are shown beaming through their own shields consistently (though not through enemy shields) from "Caretaker" on.

**** They most certainly are ''not''. In the Voyager episode "Resolutions", it is an important plot point that they ''can't'' beam through their own shields. Because they're in a fight and dropping their shields to beam would get them killed. So they have to finangle the situation so that they can drop their shields and re-raise them quickly. ''Nothing'' on Voyager was ever shown "consistently".

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* What does the destruction of Romulus 20 years after Voyager do to the [[Star Trek (Franchise)|Star Trek]] MMO's setting? Are they just going to ignore it?

** Short Answer: No. Longer Answer: The destruction of Romulus and the subsequent Romulan Civil War feature prominently in the game's backstory -- in addition, it's been mentioned in-universe that the Hobus Supernova makes no damned sense at all (scroll up for details), presumably [[~~Authors~~ Saving Throw|setting it up to be the work of the game's Big Bad.]]

** Short Answer: No. Longer Answer: The destruction of Romulus and the subsequent Romulan Civil War feature prominently in the game's backstory -- in addition, it's been mentioned in-universe that the Hobus Supernova makes no damned sense at all (scroll up for details), presumably [[Author's Saving Throw|setting it up to be the work of the game's Big Bad.]]

* The size of the Enterprise. JJ Abrams seems to love saying things are huge without actually showing us. First there was Cloverfield, where he insisted the monster had to be the biggest movie monster ever, bigger than Godzilla. But we don't get much evidence of that in the movie. With all the brief shots of the thing, it's hard to tell how big it's supposed to be. And then for this movie he insisted his Enterprise had to be three times bigger than the original. But how does he illustrate this? From the outside we only ever see the ship next to things much bigger than it is, so it looks kind of small. The Enterprise D and E had more windows all over them to help give the sense of a larger ship, but this one has the same number of windows as the original that look to be the same size. So are these windows like three stories tall? The only evidence we really get of its scale is in the cavernous interiors, but from the outside it doesn't really look any bigger than the original. People complain that the drydock scene in TMP was boring, but it did a great job of illustrating the scale of the ship. You get to see it from every angle with smaller craft and people floating around working on the ship.

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* Bottom line; ST O9 having the Romulans not being able to stop the supernova does not contradict ST Canon.

* Spock Prime's line of thought, put somewhat uncharitably: "I can't just visit Alternate Me and provide my knowledge to help save the day, because it's far more important that Alt-Kirk and Alt-me become [[Fire Forged Friends]]. And the first step Kirk must take to become so closely bonded with Spock is to rub in the loss of Spock's planet, people, and mother to the point that he wants to kill Kirk. [[What Could Possibly Go Wrong]]?" My real peeve here is Spock's insistence on conflating the alternate characters with the ones from his universe, for example, telling Scotty that "you haven't invented it yet" and telling Quinto-Spock that "my customary greeting would be oddly self-serving". The thing is, these are truly different people, with different backgrounds shaping their characters! At ''best'' they have the same DNA, and in the case of people conceived after the divergence, that's not too likely either. On what basis can he assume that, for example, ''this'' Kirk and ''this'' Spock will work great together? (He hasn't seen any of them until Kirk shows up.) And Kirk simply ''must'' become the captain, because he's Kirk. Is Spock Prime in his old age just afraid of change and trying to recreate his glory days?

* Spock Prime's line of thought, put somewhat uncharitably: "I can't just visit Alternate Me and provide my knowledge to help save the day, because it's far more important that Alt-Kirk and Alt-me become [[Fire-Forged Friends]]. And the first step Kirk must take to become so closely bonded with Spock is to rub in the loss of Spock's planet, people, and mother to the point that he wants to kill Kirk. [[What Could Possibly Go Wrong?]]?" My real peeve here is Spock's insistence on conflating the alternate characters with the ones from his universe, for example, telling Scotty that "you haven't invented it yet" and telling Quinto-Spock that "my customary greeting would be oddly self-serving". The thing is, these are truly different people, with different backgrounds shaping their characters! At ''best'' they have the same DNA, and in the case of people conceived after the divergence, that's not too likely either. On what basis can he assume that, for example, ''this'' Kirk and ''this'' Spock will work great together? (He hasn't seen any of them until Kirk shows up.) And Kirk simply ''must'' become the captain, because he's Kirk. Is Spock Prime in his old age just afraid of change and trying to recreate his glory days?

** For your first point: IIRC, Spock Prime urges Kirk to challenge Spock's authority not just because it's Kirk's place to become Captain, but because Young Spock, for all he tries to hide it, is emotionally compromised in the mission. People who are emotionally compromised tend to let their feelings get in the way of their better judgement, which can lead to them making mistakes.

** For the second: maybe so, but who are we to begrudge him that? Spock Prime is an old man trapped possibly about as far from home as you can get; several hundred years in the past, in an [[Alternate Universe]] to boot. He's been separated from everything he knows and shunted into a timeline that, for all it shares similarities, is nonetheless significantly different. Plus, his home planet in the past has been wiped out and there are hardly any Vulcans left. All he really has left are the memories of the past; his life-defining friendship with Jim Kirk and his experiences on the ''Enterprise'' among them. And lo! He has the opportunity to influence a younger version of himself to follow this path which ended up arguably making him a better person and defining his life. Why would he ''want'' to deprive the younger version of that? Yes, it's a (slightly) different universe and Spock probably understands this full well, but from his point of view it probably can't hurt.

** He could've also assumed that although the universe seems to be significantly different, certain events that occurred in the prime-verse could still happen. The last thing their universe needed was no Kirk and Spock to deal with, say, [[Star Trek ~~the~~ Motion Picture (Film)|V'Ger]] or the [[Star Trek IV the Voyage Home (Film)|Whale Probe]].

** He could've also assumed that although the universe seems to be significantly different, certain events that occurred in the prime-verse could still happen. The last thing their universe needed was no Kirk and Spock to deal with, say, [[Star Trek: The Motion Picture (Film)|V'Ger]] or the [[Star Trek IV the Voyage Home (Film)|Whale Probe]].

* Inconsistency between verses that might not be accountable by the Alternate Universe: