Strawman Has a Point: Difference between revisions

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{{quote|''"You can't have heroes and villains when the wrong side is making the best sense."''|'''[[Roger Ebert]]''' [http://rogerebert.suntimes.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20020125/REVIEWS/201250303/1023 reviewing] ''[[I Am Sam]]''}}

An author sets up a [[Straw Character]], or some other kind of [[The War On Straw|straw-man argument]]. The author attempts to demolish said man of straw. And then, sometimes [[Fridge Logic|later]], sometimes right away, the reader realizes that [[Exactly What It Says on the Tin|the strawman has a point]]; that is, the straw-man argument is not as weak as the author intended it to be, sometimes to the point of being better than the "correct" argument.

This may be caused by [[Creator Provincialism]], [[Did Not Do the Research|Not Doing the Research]], or just plain bad writing. It has also been known to result from [[Values Dissonance]], in the case of works written in a culture/era different from that of the audience (e.g. "strawman" arguments against things like racism), or from the audience and the work falling at very different places on the [[Sliding Scale of Idealism Versus Cynicism]] (see example from which the Ebert page quote was drawn, but also almost any instance where a work promotes [[Straw Vulcan|love, faith, emotion, etc. over logic]] and depicts the logicians as "the bad guys").

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** The whole argument of a [[Cycle of Revenge]] as consequence falls apart when considering that Sasuke just started it by making an ''unprovoked attack'' on the Cloud Village. The Raikage even makes the perfectly valid point to Naruto of: "I'm going to kill Sasuke, it will be up to you that it ends there!"

** Danzo himself is a rather textbook [[Well-Intentioned Extremist]] who's generally portrayed in a negative light because he is in opposition to the main characters. He's put in a situation where a neutral, rational head of an international alliance ''would'' have put him in charge if he wasn't so busy making sure he was put in charge. Immediately after this, he gets caught in a fight with Sasuke, and the reader is shown that he was pretty much right all along, he was just a dick about it.

* In ''[[Yu Yu Hakusho]]'', the Koorime are made to appear to us as heartless bitches who would willingly condemn a child to death just because his mother [[Human Mom, Nonhuman Dad|made him with someone]] [[Fantastic Racism|from a different race]] (albeit a demon) and he looks "a little" [[Creepy Child|creepy]] at birth. Even his sister, by far the purest creature from the series, thinks their whole kind deserves to be killed for what they did to her, her mother, and her brother. The problem is, their point is completely valid. All the male offspring so far have killed many Koorime, who can only reproduce at intervals of over a century. And Hiei was only [[Retired Monster|saved]] from ''staying'' a [[Complete Monster]] by [[The Power of Friendship]].

* In ''[[Black Cat (manga)|Black Cat]]'', [[Ax Crazy|Baldor]]'s desire to murder [[Pyromaniac|Kyoko]] after her [[Heel Face Turn]] is supposed to be a sign of how demented he is, which will make us root all the more when [[The Hero|Train]] fights him and his partner, [[Handicapped Badass|Kranz]], to save her. Problem is, Kyoko, pre [[Heel Face Turn]], was not only a member of a group determined to plunge the world into chaos, but a [[Psycho for Hire]] who enjoyed burning people alive from the inside out, while ''[[Interplay of Sex and Violence|kissing them]]''. On top of that, her switching sides is motivated, not by the realization that what she's doing is wrong, but from fear of [[Big Bad]] [[Bad Boss|Creed]], and a crush on Train. End result, Baldor comes off looking ''far'' more reasonable than he ever should when he recommends they just kill her. Happens again when one of the heroes tells him that just murdering your enemies is wrong. Cue one of the enemies she'd [[Ungrateful Bastard|just spared]] blowing himself up to try and kill her. Baldor's maniacal laughter ends up being less [[Kick the Dog]], and more "told ya."

* ''[[Pokémon (anime)|Pokémon]]'' has [[The Rival|Paul.]] Created as a [[Straw Fan]] to the [["Stop Having Fun!" Guys]] of the game franchise of the same name, he was an all-around [[Jerkass]] who abused his mons and disrespected everyone that didn't battle like him. On paper, this could've made a good [[Take That, Audience!]]; too bad that he almost always [[Curb Stomp Battle|wipes the floor with everyone he battles]], including [[The Hero|Ash]], and [[Jerk Sue|other trainers praise his skills despite his abusiveness.]]

* In ''[[Bleach]]'''s Bount arc, Kariya recruits the denizens of Soul Society from outside the Seireitei to help him enter. This was a trick, of course, but the terms he used to convince them had a point; namely that the Seireitei treats them like crap and they should dismantle the system. So it's more like Villain Has A Point.

* A real thinker in ''[[Rurouni Kenshin]]''. The central [[Aesop]] of the series circulates around [[Redemption Equals Life]], [[Everybody Lives]], and [[Forgiveness]], and main character Himura Kenshin breathes this philosophy in order to [[The Atoner|atone]] for his past crimes. However, Kenshin's rival, Saito Haijime, deconstructs Kenshin's [[Thou Shalt Not Kill|no-kill]] philosophy by stating that by allowing his enemies - who are usually [[Ax Crazy]], [[The Sociopath|sociopathic]], [[Card-Carrying Villain|card-carrying]], [[Complete Monster|complete monsters]] - to live, he endangers more lives than he saves. ''And this has happened''. Case and point, {{spoiler|during the Jinchuu Arc, Kenshin defeats and spares two of Six Comrades, Gein and Kujirinami, who were no doubt [[The Dragon|the most dangerous]]. What do they do as soon as they recuperate during the climax of the battle (when [[Big Bad|Enishi]] was going to enact [[Revenge by Proxy|his true revenge against Kenshin]])? '''They go straight onto aiding Enishi again.'''}}

* In ''[[Freezing]]'', Scarlett Oohara is portrayed as being wrong for wanting to turn ordinary girls into artificial [[Super Soldier|Pandoras]] to fight the [[Eldritch Abomination|Novas]] which plague humanity. The argument is that there is no point making civilians fight the battles when they're supposed to be the ones being protected, and that humans shouldn't try to reach for more than they have. Never mind that natural Pandoras are getting killed off faster than they can be born and that the current system is plenty cruel enough in that if you're born with the potential to become a Pandora, you have no other choice but to be one. Giving one a choice would be a huge benefit. Not to mention that Dr. Aoi Gendo, Oohara's main opposition, is okay with the Limiter system, which sends plenty of willing, once-civilian ''[[Men Are the Expendable Gender|boys]]'' into the battlefield. Scarlett's point is then undermined {{spoiler|since the E-Pandora project was never really meant to succeed in the first place. It was merely a publicity stunt to buy time for the Type Maria project. The girls who suffered and died because of the E-Pandora project did so for nothing.}}

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** Robert Kelly's arguments (such as comparing mutant registration to gun control) actually made sense to some readers and viewers. Then they turned an otherwise logical argument into an [[Anvilicious]] allegory to McCarthyism when they had the senator hold up a "list of names of identified mutants", shifting the argument from "Some mutants are dangerous" to "All mutants are dangerous". Of course, once the killer mutant-seeking robots come in (and ''they always do''), it seems clear that Kelly is [[Jumping Off the Slippery Slope]], even if his arguments do have a grain of truth to them.

** In [[The Movie]], Kelly specifically mentions [[Mythology Gag|a girl who can]] [[Intangible Man|walk through walls]], and asks "What's to stop her from walking right into a bank vault -- or the White House?" In the very next movie, a [[Brainwashed and Crazy]] Nightcrawler is able to [[Teleporters and Transporters|teleport]] into the White House and kick the Secret Service's collective ass, proving Kelly right. Of course, Professor Xavier's point (in all versions) is that mutants need to be trained to use their powers responsibly, and that treating innocent mutants who have done nothing criminal as requiring surveillance is counter-productive, the more moderate (and since he's a main character, the one we're supposed to see as "correct") response. [[Word of God|According to the director's commentary]], this degree of ambiguity was completely intentional.

** Sometimes the point for Senator Kelly is intentional, showing that it stems from a genuine concern about safety for normal humans. These stories usually contrast him with Graydon Creed, who's just an outright bigot.

* The whole ''Marvel [[Civil War (Comic Book)|Civil War]]'' arc had this problem.

** It was supposed to be a nuanced exploration of whether or not [[Super Registration Act|compulsory registration for superheroes]] was necessary to curb catastrophic mistakes and potential abuses of power. ''Both sides'' were supposed to have valid points (but supposedly supporting the Pro-Registration overall). Unfortunately, due to insufficient coordination between the writing teams of different books (as well as a ''serious'' difference in the skills of the writing teams - the anti-reg side got '''[[J. Michael Straczynski]]'''), [[Mark Millar]] failed at making readers sympathize with the pro-registration side and both sides ended up looking like straw men, with the pro-registration side looking particularly monstrous. For starters, the SHRA criminalized the act of apprehending a criminal when you yourself are an average citizen, as well as SHIELD trying to arrest [[Captain America]] for refusing to join the pro-reg side, ''before'' it was actually signed into law. To make matters worse, the actual specifics of registration [[Depending on the Writer|varied from book to book]]:

** It was supposed to be a nuanced exploration of whether or not [[Super Registration Act|compulsory registration for superheroes]] was necessary to curb catastrophic mistakes and potential abuses of power. ''Both sides'' were supposed to have valid points (but supposedly supporting the Pro-Registration overall). Unfortunately, due to insufficient coordination between the writing teams of different books (as well as a ''serious'' difference in the skills of the writing teams - the anti-reg side got '''[[J. Michael Straczynski]]'''), [[Mark Millar]] failed at making readers sympathize with the pro-registration side and both sides ended up looking like straw men, with the pro-registration side looking particularly monstrous. For starters, the SHRA criminalized the act of apprehending a criminal when you yourself are an average citizen, as well as SHIELD trying to arrest [[Captain America (comics)]] for refusing to join the pro-reg side, ''before'' it was actually signed into law. To make matters worse, the actual specifics of registration [[Depending on the Writer|varied from book to book]]:

** In pro-reg books, registration was treated as a prerequisite to a superhero being a crime=fighter. Supers were given the option of not using their powers, getting trained in using them properly and to establish that they were not a threat to themselves or others, and going to prison. If they did not want to fight crime after they were finished being trained, then they didn't have to, and there was no indication that they would be forced. It was just shown that a lot of people chose to fight crime because they had made friends with their fellow trainees and they felt like they should use their powers for good. However, the pro-registration side was still not sympathetic because Tony Stark and Mr. Fantastic were portrayed as being jerks, who felt like [[Omniscient Morality License|they knew what was best]], as well as committing some blatant war crimes. But they were making excellent points throughout and [[Take Our Word for It|if Mr. Fantastic's math can be believed]], it was the lesser of a few evils.

** In anti-reg books, SHIELD [[Mutant Draft Board|forcibly conscripted anyone who happened to have any kind of superpowers]] whether they wanted to fight crime or not, and the pro-reg heroes were [[Well-Intentioned Extremist|Well Intentioned Extremists]]. When [[Luke Cage, Hero for Hire]] said he just was going to not use his powers and stay out of it, armed gunmen showed up at his door on midnight of the day the act went into effect. In ''Avengers: The Initiative,'' kids recruited were told that they either join the initiative, get their powers taken, or go to jail. Cloud 9, whose power was a little cloud that could make her fly, was recruited, turned into a sniper and sent to killing missions, even though she never wanted to use her power for crime fighting. In addition, Stark orchestrated an attack on [[Black Panther]], foreign chief of state, because his wife (who had diplomatic immunity) refused to sign up. It was quite clearly a case of "work for us or else".

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* ''[[Batman]]'' himself in "Tower of Babel" story arc and it's [[Justice League Doom|film counterpart]] with his [[Crazy Prepared|contingency plans]] for rogue League members. He even gives us this comment when the League calls him out on it.

{{quote|'''Batman:''' "My actions don't require any defense. In the same situation, I'd do it again. As individuals, and even more so as a group, the Justice League is far too dangerous to lack a failsafe against any misuse of our power. If you people can't see the potential danger of an out-of-control Justice League, I don't need to hear a vote. I don't belong here."}}

* ''[[Red Sonja]]'' - She-Devil with a sword" #1-7 has the Borat-Na-Fori religion, which practices human sacrifice. The Celestial, the antagonist, and some sort of strawman for organized religion, points out that his religion is the only thing keeping the entire realm from plunging into barbarism, and that Sonja is only going to make things worse by bringing him down. Turns out that he is absolutely right. At best, the moral of the story is that [[Unfortunate Implications|the Mexican Indians had it coming]].

* ''[[Magnus, Robot Fighter]]'' eventually ascended the straw point -- the hero accepted that the robots' reasons for [[Robot Rebellion|rebellion]] were basically sound, and tried to arrange a peace. And then it descended it again (or possibly just applied [[He Who Fights Monsters]]), and Magnus even destroyed robots that weren't rebellious.

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* About two-thirds of the way through ''[[Dumbledore's Army and the Year of Darkness|Dumbledores Army and The Year of Darkness]]'', Zacharias Smith decides to leave the DA. When he does so, he explains that the DA is sounding more and more like a martyrdom cult with each passing day, and the focus of the group has changed from "Resist the Death Eaters" to "Die heroically". The DA counterargument is... to agree with every word he says and ask, "What's the problem with that?" Bear in mind that all of the members of Dumbledore's Army are ''[[Child Soldiers|teenagers]]'', and Zacharias Smith (who was a strawman in canon!) suddenly becomes the [[Only Sane Man]].

* In ''[[Hogwarts Exposed]]'', the [[Obviously Evil]] school bully [[Meaningful Name|Dick]] rants about what an idiot [[Mary Sue|Jamie]] is for diving into the freezing lake to rescue a child's doll. He's right, because however much sentimental value a doll has it's not worth drowning or freezing to death over, [[Forgot About Her Powers|especially as she could just have said "Accio doll" and had done with it]].

* The so-called villains in ''[[The Conversion Bureau]]'' see ponies as a threat to mankind - and given that the ponies' goal is to remove all of humanity and make them conform, ''they're absolutely right''.

== Film -- Animated ==

* In ''[[The Hunchback of Notre Dame (Disney film)|The Hunchback of Notre Dame]]'', Frollo's [[Hobbes Was Right|grim depiction]] of the world "out there" actually sounds quite realistic, considering that this is [[The Middle Ages|Mediaeval Europe]] we're talking about.

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** While [http://bventertainment.go.com/tv/buenavista/atm/reviews.html?sec=6&subsec=patch+adams reviewing], Ebert and Siskel agreed with the film's [[The War On Straw|strawman villains]]. Yes, they were shown insisting on being professional at all times, which apparently includes things such as [[Brutal Honesty|flatly telling someone they had a few weeks to live]] and then heading off to complete your rounds without another word, Ebert and Siskel said they would run if they got a wacky doctor like [[Robin Williams]]' character. [[Take a Third Option|The option of having a reasonable amount of bedside manner without going overboard is never offered.]] This is a bit of [[Viewers Are Geniuses]] - on their face, the traditional doctors seem reasonable.

** Also, Patch's roommate is supposed to be a [[Jerkass]] [[Straw Vulcan]] whose hostility is motivated by his frustration over Patch's subversive antics. When Patch calls him out after he turns Patch in for suspected cheating, the roommate points out that he's seen how little studying Patch actually gets done and asks how Patch still manages to get such high marks. The viewer has yet to see Patch do much studying either, so it seems primed for Patch to defend himself with a recitation of some medical jargon or explain how he's got [[Photographic Memory]] and doesn't need to study or something. Instead, Patch launches into another speech attacking the roommate for being a [[Jerkass]], and the viewer is [[Informed Ability|left to assume]] Patch wears his smart hat offscreen because he's the protagonist, so he couldn't possibly be cheating to excel in an academic system he has such little regard for.

** One line by Adams about how "it's not like getting involved with your patients causes you to explode" [[Wham! Line|completely destroys the movie's moral]] when one character getting involved with a shady patient causes them to be [[Your Head Asplode|shot in the head]]. Adams's methods directly caused a main character to die, but we're not supposed to notice that.

* Ebert's review of [http://rogerebert.suntimes.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20030221/REVIEWS/302210304/1023 The Life of David Gale], which is a different type of this trope: the movie's central characters go ''so ridiculously far'' to show that their position is right, you can't help but be disgusted with them.

* In ''[[Cape Fear]]'', Bowden gets the chief of police to try to drive Cady out of town before Cady has done anything illegal. Cady hires a lawyer who is portrayed as fussy and over-liberal, but who makes the entirely legitimate point that Cady is being harassed for no reason. Of course, Cady does not stay innocent for long.

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* Dean Wormer's point of view in ''[[Animal House]]'' is understandable -- no sane college administration would want the Deltas around, and the rest of the student body might well have been good and tired of their endless pranks, hell-raising and rule-breaking. The Deltas may have been [[Affably Evil]], but evil they were nonetheless... a lot of the stunts they pulled would get people who tried them in [[Real Life]] [[Hilarity Ensues|tossed straight into jail]]. The fact that Wormer goes overboard ultimately justifies him being the villain.

* In the hilariously [[Anvilicious]] and [[Narm|Narmy]] [[Lifetime Original Movie]] ''Cyber Seduction: His Secret Life'', the mother of the protagonist freaks and panics upon learning that her son is [[What Do You Mean It's Not Heinous?|looking at Internet porn]]. The father is very unconcerned and doesn't think there is anything abnormal about a teenage boy looking at porn. We are expect to consider the father an oafish buffoon over this [[Informed Wrongness|for some reason]]. We can argue all day about the morality of pornography, but it's not like people looking for dirty stuff on the internet is, you know, ''[[The Internet Is for Porn|uncommon]]''. We know that he is wrong because he is a) a male, b) disagreeing with a female, c) in a [[Lifetime Movie of the Week]].

* In ''[[Indiana Jones and the Kingdom of the Crystal Skull]]'', two government agents angrily interrogate Indy after Russian spies kidnap him and an old partner of his, murder several American soldiers at a top secret test facility and make off with an alien corpse. Considering what just happened and that Indy's old partner was working with the Russians, the interrogation doesn't seem that unnecessary.

* In ''[[Accepted]]'', a high school senior rejected by every college ends up inventing one out of thin air. The thing spins out of control and becomes an actual, factual school set out of an old mental institution. The [[Dean Bitterman]] at the nearby traditional college wages an accreditation jihad against the upstart. The guy's a [[Jerkass]], and the new school (with its emphasis on the students) is presented as a brave bastion of new educational methods. But as Dean Dick points out, the new place doesn't have a health center, more than one faculty member, or even a ''library.'' One doesn't have to be a crusty old academic to argue that a college should at least have a freaking library.

* An extremely disturbing example of this occurs in the ''[[Saw]]'' series. In the first two movies, Jigsaw is shown as a psychotic (if somewhat atypical) [[Complete Monster]] who deserves no one's sympathy. However, some fans actually thought he had a point with his "those that don't appreciate their life don't deserve to live it" philosophy. In the sequels after ''II'', he goes from [[Complete Monster]] to a [[Well-Intentioned Extremist]] and is portrayed in a much more sympathetic light, especially compared to the other villains in the series. By the time we get to ''Saw V'', several characters actually say, outloud, "We deserve this". So, the movie makers saw that people were sympathizing with their psychotic character, and instead of discouraging it by making him more crazy, they encouraged it by making him less of a strawman. The end result is that many fans wind up thinking that the psychotic murderer is in the right... somehow...

* The title character of ''[[Hitch]]'' makes some very valid points about continuing with one's life, adapting, and moving on after a relationship goes sour. He gets called out on this by one of his clients who outright calls him a coward for not chasing after one's love; granted, in the client's case, the breakup was because of a misunderstanding, but on Hitch's case there was a very clear and valid reason for it. As expected, since the film is a [[Romantic Comedy]], Hitch gives in and goes great lengths to get back his love interest even after several rejections, incurring extreme behavior and injuries to himself. Try imagining how that would work in [[Real Life]]. All which leads to the [[Why Would Anyone Take Him Back?|Why Would Anyone Take Her Back]] moment in the end.

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{{quote|'''Lawyer:''' So, you're Albert Schweitzer now?

'''Larry:''' Not Albert Schweitzer, Robin Hood. I rob from the rich and give to the middle class. Well, the upper middle class. Caviar? }}

* Many critics who disliked ''Lions for Lambs'' felt this way about [[Tom Cruise]]'s character. A Senator with Presidential ambitions, his role in the film is an interview with anti-war journalist played by Meryl Streep discussing his new plan for Afghanistan. The Senator outlines a reasonable plan and makes some good points, but the film basically expects us to side exclusively with Streep's character simply due to her being anti-war and it being an anti-war film.

* In ''[[Jaws 2]]'', it's obvious that the viewer is supposed to side with Brody, who's in the same position as he was in the previous film -- he knows there's a shark out there killing people, but no one wants to listen to him and everyone wants to keep the beaches open in order to keep the tourist dollars rolling in. However, the filmmakers seem to gloss over the fact that Brody started a panic on a beach full of people -- sounding an alarm, screaming at people, and firing his gun -- actions that could have resulted in someone being injured or even ''killed'', not to mention the possibility of a lawsuits that would cost the town even more money than a canceled summer season. Even though the day after they fired him the shark went on a rampage and killed several teens and nearly killed several others, including the Mayor's own son, Brody didn't exactly endear himself to the town with that stunt.

* ''The Green Berets'', a 1968 film about the Vietnam war starring [[John Wayne]]. The film's agenda is pro-war and one of the characters is a strawman journalist with anti-war arguments that are shown to be "weak". Most people watching the [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PLOC7evq0dU opening scenes] of the film today will root for said journalist. The fact that [[History Marches On|the verdict of history]] has not been kind to [[The Vietnam War]] and those who were in support of it probably doesn't help.

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** Then again, the belief that starting a family is a bad thing --even if it's what one ''chooses'' to do-- and a waste of one's talent is absolutely ''brimming'' with [[Unfortunate Implications]].

* ''[[Enemy of the State]]'' has a retroactive example in the [[Big Bad]], an NSA official who believes the government should have the power to secretly wiretap American citizens due to the threat of terrorism (the full scope of which most Americans, particularly those opposing the bill, were unaware of). He's shown to be willing to frame or kill off anyone who opposes him, furthering the message that the government shouldn't have the right to surveille unsuspecting Americans. The film [[Harsher in Hindsight|predates 9/11 by ~3 years]], while [[Shown Their Work|staying faithful to the NSA's full communications capabilities]], but in light of the fact that a devastating terrorist attack ([[Rule of Cautious Editing Judgement|whatever you belive its origins to be]]) in the real world prompted the government to give the NSA explicit authorization expand its warrantless wiretapping authority to American citizens, it makes the issue of whether or not the government should have this authority<ref> although the program is not constitutionally sound in theory, a court of review found that the program was constitutional and there are a lot of conflicting opinions as to its legality.</ref> much less black and white than when the film first came out.

* In ''[[Pirates of the Caribbean]]: Curse of The Black Pearl'', pirates are shown to be evil, murderous, and a dangerous lure for Will Turner, who only helps Jack for the sake of a rescue mission. Fast forward to the third film ''At World's End'', where the film wants you to totally sympathise with the [[Anti-Hero|pirates]] and despise the ruthless Lord Beckett. But realistically, Lord Beckett is simply cracking down on murderous criminals who deserve punishment. His actions would be socially progressive, had he not [[Jumped Off the Slippery Slope]] and then crossed the [[Moral Event Horizon]] by having a child hanged. The intent seems to have been to portray [[Grey and Grey Morality]], with everyone involved some level of corrupt (except for Will Turner), with even the heroine becoming a lying, murderous bastard.

* In ''[[La Haine]]'', the more one observes the main characters and their tendency to escalate every small issue into violence, the more one feels the police are absolutely right to treat them with suspicion and loathing at every turn, including the use of force. Though it is no doubt a [[Grey and Grey Morality]] tale, it is not that hard to be [[Rooting for the Empire]].

* In the 1976 stinker ''Rattlers,'' at one point the female lead goes off on the sexism in the professional world; it's treated dismissively by everyone in the film (including the male lead) but really, she's got a good point about how men at the time systematically denied deserved recognition in all professions to women of high accomplishment. Doesn't help that the movie's godawful.

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* In ''[[Roseanne]]'', Leon is portrayed as wrong for wanting to fire Roseanne, even though she really ''is'' a lazy and sometimes intimidating employee who backtalks him almost every time he asks her to do something, even if that thing is something completely reasonable for an employer to ask of an employee. Of course, Leon is often a bit of a jerk in his own right.

* Similar to Roseanne, ''[[Everybody Loves Raymond]]'' had Ray often act as a straw-misogynist to prove Debra's superiority, even in occasions when he was justified or right in doing what he did.

* On ''[[The Gruen Transfer]]'' in "The Pitch" segments, some topics, while unsellable, do get mighty-convincing ads. This is naturally intentional, since the whole point is to demonstrate exactly how effective advertising can be.

* Any time anyone doubts the legitimacy of offender profiling in ''[[Criminal Minds]]'', particularly when it's the only evidence for an arrest ([[Third-Act Stupidity]] ensures the unsub always greets the arresting officers with enough evidence for a conviction; things rarely go well when they don't). Profiling IRL has never been proved to be effective and tests show "experts" have no more success with it than laymen.

** In the episode Tabula Rosa there is an especially egregious example where Hotchner is testifying at a criminal trial. When the defense lawyer claims that all the FBI's profilers are doing is simply [http://en.wikipedia.or/wiki/Cold_Reading cold reading], Hotchner responds by cold reading the defense lawyer. This of course defeats this lawyer despite actually proving his point. Even though Hotchner was correct in his predictions, this doesn't prove anything of value. If that was a real defense lawyer that had been inteligent, he should have called a fake psychic to do the exact same thing as a rebuttal witness. Of course at the end of the episode, as always, they end up proving themselves correct with other evidence.

* ''[[Lois and Clark]]'': When [[Magnificent Bastard|Tempus]] mind-controls the entire city into turning against Supes, a lot of what happens seems like [[Reality Ensues]]. For example, he catches a couple of bank robbers and drops them off at the feet of an unassuming cop, who turns around and lets them go, insisting that it's Superman's word against their's that they were robbing a bank (although at the very least the cop would have held them on suspicion until they sorted the whole matter out). Later, a bunch of bureaucrats demand to see his license to fly as well as asking questions involving taxes. Technically, Superman pays taxes as Clark Kent, but the public at large isn't supposed to know he has a [[Secret Identity]], making it more a question of why some non-mind controlled [[Jerkass]] bureaucrat hasn't at least asked this question of the IRS.

* ''[[Merlin (TV series)|Merlin]]'':

** This is played with (usually consciously) with King Uther. The man hates magic due to the fact that it killed his wife, and his genocide of all those who practice magic, no matter how benevolent, is seen as terrible. And yet, most the time the threats against Camelot are entirely magical in nature (though in turn, many of Camelot's magical enemies are striking against Uther out of vengeance of what he's done to ''them''). It's a vicious circle.

** Other times, Uther has to make tough decisions about how to rule, and though he's often portrayed to be in the wrong, it's not difficult to see his point when he refuses to help a small village in a neighbouring kingdom because sending armed knights in to help might be construed as an act of war, or when he cuts off supplies from the lower towns during a famine because he needs what little food is left to feed the knights and thus maintain Camelot's safety.

* On ''[[Babylon 5]]'':

** {{spoiler|Garibaldi}} gets brainwashed into developing an irrational hatred of Captain Sheridan. Thing is, while his accusation that Sheridan has [[A God Am I|bought into his own hype]] is completely bogus, his comparison of the station to a military dictatorship is not. That's actually precisely what it is: its "government" consists entirely of Sheridan giving orders and his troops carrying them out.

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** Writer/Producer Joe Michael Straczynski has claimed that it was intentional that Garibaldi had a valid point. [[Jerkass Has a Point]] might be the case here.

* On ''[[Law and Order]]'':

** ''Prejudice'' had a double-version; a lawyer for a guy who killed a Black man based the [[Insanity Defense]] on his client's racism being so strong that he had to be insane. Except when the defendant gets on the stand to rant against Blacks, his complaints weren't the rants of an insane nutcase; rather, he made nuisance complaints about talking during movies and other [[White Dude, Black Dude|stereotypical differences between Whites and Blacks]] that numerous Black comedians have pointed out as part of their routines. He only "had a point" inasmuch as whomever he was presumably plagiarizing and the sensibility of his arguments undercut his defense as well; he was supposed to be an irrational madman but he came across as a guy who watched too many Chris Rock films.

** Serena Southerlyn was an in-universe version; anytime a defendant had a liberal-leaning defense, she'd jump to their side (i.e. a homeless man claims homelessness made him kill, she'd go "You don't think his lawyer has a point about homelessness being a problem?" She oscillated between just playing the Devil's Advocate and outright missing the point that, in this case, not everyone who is homeless goes off and murders someone.

* ''[[Law and Order SVU]]'':

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** One episode had the detectives interrogating a man whom they suspected of raping a disabled woman. The man insists that the sex was consensual. When the detectives scoff at this, the man chides them for assuming that just because someone is in a wheelchair, he/she is incapable of sexual desires or feelings. While his point is undermined by the fact that he's ''guilty'', it's a valid point just the same.

** Another episode has a woman allegedly raped by her policeman husband. While the squad is very clear that, uniform or no uniform, rape is rape, the marital-rape issues cause more squad-room debate. At the end, when the case has devolved into he-said-she-said and the defendant (who waived a jury trial) has been acquitted, Benson complains that this means that a woman claiming her husband raped her had better be battered too. Well, maybe not battered, but-since one's mate's DNA in/on one's person is hardly evidence of rape-yeah, some physical evidence would be helpful.

** One episode has a boy who has a psychotic episode and shoots two of his classmates, and so the SVU team blames the pharmaceutical company that produced the pills he was on at the time. When confronted, the representative from the company makes some very valid points: the medication was sent only to people who had already been prescribed it previously, it was sent completely free of charge, the instructions were very clear that it wasn't meant to be taken by children, and it was prescribed to the boy's mother and not the boy himself. The fact that the boy's school demanded he be medicated or he would be expelled doesn't matter. The fact that the mother's HMO refused to cover regular therapy (with a doctor who didn't think the boy needed to be medicated at all) doesn't matter. The fact that the boy's mother, who gave him the pills without reading the instructions or consulting a doctor, ''continued'' giving them to him after he developed severe insomnia and paranoid schizophrenia doesn't matter. All that matters is that Big Pharm is bad, and that's why the CEO is arrested. Granted, the CEO was morally shady (he had pills sent directly to patients through doctors' lists) and he's not charged with murder - only for reckless endangerment and misuse of the mail - but the audience is still expected to think of him as directly, morally culpable for the killings. For extra fun, consider that the doctor who gave his patient list to the pharmaceutical company did it specifically so that his patients could get, free of charge, the medications they needed but couldn't afford!

* Played with in ''[[Wire in The Blood]]''. Penny Burgess, a manipulative journalist who has sex with a police officer for inside information, points out that it is wrong to arrest a suspect on purely circumstantial evidence and release his name to the public. Because she is a villain, the audience isn't encouraged to take what she says seriously and none of the other characters agree with her, but she is proven right when {{spoiler|the man they arrested commits suicide in prison and is later proven to be innocent}}.

* Due to [[Values Dissonance]], it is jarring when Blakey in ''[[On the Buses]]'' is depicted as an uptight bully for getting angry at Stan and Jack for groping the female staff and being lazy.

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** Bryan Ryan, a guest character played by [[Neil Patrick Harris]], is an ex-glee-clubber who goes on a crusade against school arts programs out of his own frustration that his singing and acting career didn't exactly pan out. While the point is lost in how far he takes it - basically encouraging kids to give up on their dreams - he's not wrong that most of them will not end up in Broadway or Hollywood and that they should have back-up plans. The show doesn't help by having background characters like [[Advertised Extra|Tina]] be the ones to argue for their arts dreams.

** Upon his return, Jesse St. James is painted as a massive Jerkass for pointing out things like being talented isn't an excuse not to practice and rehearse. More than a few people in fandom agreed, and some even went so far as to say they were hoping New Directions didn't win at Nationals, since the fact that they weren't preparing any songs, weren't prepared to practice, and really didn't care showed they didn't deserve to win that year, and agreed with the decision in the finale.

** In another episode, Will wants Emma to embrace that she has Obsessive Compulsive Disorder by wearing it printed on a tee shirt in front of the club. She chickens out and instead says her flaw is that she is a ginger. When Will confronts her, she says that she did not confess she has a serious mental disorder because as a staff member, it is highly inappropriate to talk about such things with students. And while she does later admit that that was just an excuse and goes out in the ending number with a shirt reading OCD, she was initially quite right that her personal psychiatric health is not a subject she should discuss with her students.

* In ''[[Carrusel]]'', Jorge tells on Bibi, since Bibi was cheating on a test. The audience is supposed to take Bibi's side, since Jorge is such an abominable character overall. But cheating is wrong. It is unfair for Bibi to cheat and get away with it. And at age 9, nobody will be faulted for saying it loud and immediately instead of waiting till later and telling the teacher in private.

* In ''[[Memphis Beat]]'', Dwight and the other cops are issued smartphones. They prefer their regular phones, and treat them with contempt. Dwight even quips "there's an app for that" just before he uses his to break a window. Problem is, smartphones can actually increase productivity and effectiveness, with proper training, which Dwight and Co. admittedly had not received (yet). Also, Dwight was risking damage to an expensive phone and associated services on the Memphis taxpayers' dime.

* In the unaired 2011 ''[[Wonder Woman]]'' pilot, Diana has dinner with a Senator who expresses concerns about the way she does things - namely, using [[Cold-Blooded Torture]] to get information from criminals, giving the metaphorical finger to [[Reasonable Authority Figure|Reasonable Authority Figures]], and outright committing slander by holding a press conference to accuse Liz Hurley's character of being a murderous [[Corrupt Corporate Executive]] and '''admitting''' that she doesn't have any proof besides gut instinct. In fact, the only reason she's meeting the Senator is to get justification so she can go after Hurley. Of course, since Wondy-[[In Name Only]] is the [[Designated Hero|hero]] of this story, she's ultimately presented as right.

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* Right-wing cartoonist [[wikipedia:Chuck Asay|Chuck Asay]]:

** Every now and then he'll do a comic showcasing "Which situation would you rather have happen?". The one that he tries to show as evil and wrong will unintentionally come off as acceptable to most readers. Or [http://www.creators.com/editorialcartoons/chuck-asay/14769.html take this one], intended to tar [[Global Warming]] as junk science [[You Fail Biology Forever|as bogus as… evolution]].

** And then there's [http://www.creators.com/editorial_cartoons/5/107_image.gif this one], where you have to wonder if it's not intentional. It shows Bush, McCain, and Lieberman coming up with a strategy that is literally just cheerleading the Iraq war, after which a generic Democrat comments to an agreeable house, senate, and media that it's going to be a tough sell. This would ''seem'' to be a clear-cut anti-Bush comic... except that his other comics indicate that he wholeheartedly endorses the war and the new strategy, and the audience is supposed to come across as cynical and manipulative.

** A similar case is [http://media.townhall.com/Townhall/Car/b/NPR_Trick_or_Treat20101028041628.jpg this] cartoon. Supposedly drawn with Tea Party sympathies, it depicts the Tea Party as a man pissing in a kid's Trick-or-Treat bucket (and ''exposing himself to a minor'' in the process).

* In an extended arc of ''[[9 Chickweed Lane]]'' a British commander was held to be wrong be all the characters for believing that Edna was a collaborator- but because they hadn't told him the facts (like her being an American spy), that really was what it looked like with what he knew, so he ended up far more sympathetic than intended.

* The last few years of ''[[For Better or For Worse]]'' suffered from this.

* The spoof editorial cartoons by Kelly featured in ''[[The Onion]]'' purposefully [[Invoked Trope|invoke this trope]] all the time. The Chuck Asay cartoon linked above would be right at home.

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* The Fourtune/EV 2.0 feud in [[TNA]] seems to be based around the fact that Fourtune is pissed they have to make room in the spotlight for all the old ECW guys, most of whom they feel can't wrestle. [[Ric Flair]] stated that until [the ECW guys] survive a plane crash like he did, they can't tell him shit about being "hardcore". Likewise, AJ Styles feels he's helped make TNA what it is through his duty to the company, calling TNA "The House AJ Built" and declaring ECW has no right to [[Spotlight-Stealing Squad|push him and the other originals out of the spotlight]]. They both have a point. What sends this into a combination of [[Viewers are Morons]]/[[Mind Screw]] territory is that the ECW/EV2.0 guys were famously loyal to Paul Heyman because they always came first to him (other guys would come in but he never put them over at the expense of his originals). The audience is supposed to boo Fourtune (the original TNA guys, for the most part) because they're complaining EV2.0 (the invaders) are taking over their show, when their original company (ECW) achieved its success because the original ECW manager was loyal to his originals and never pushed them aside. Furthermore, the ECW guys are supposed to be faces, but they're doing something that the original ECW despised (pushing aside original talent in favor of other, more famous people).

* Another TNA example would be the decision by President Dixie Carter to fire "The Monster" Abyss. She was shown bullying General Manager Eric Bischoff into enforcing her wishes, which is admittedly her right as his superior. The problem here is that she wanted to fire Abyss not because he has been randomly attacking and even attempting to kill high-profile wrestlers (such as his assault on then-TNA Champion [[Rob Van Dam]], forcing Van Dam to vacate the title), but because Abyss took Dixie hostage in front of the entire TNA "Impact Zone" (what TNA calls its [[Fan Community Nicknames|in-studio fan base]]) and reduced her to a sniveling wreck on national television. While firing Abyss is (in [[Kayfabe]], at least) almost certainly a good idea, the point here is that Dixie comes across as an egotistical [[Manipulative Bastard|Manipulative Bitch]] for [[It's All About Me|caring more about looking good on camera than about the safety of her employees]]. Granted, this is a bit of an inversion of the trope since the strawman in this instance does ''not'' have a point (Abyss ''is'' a [[Complete Monster]], after all); it's just that the ''anti''-straw woman indeed has a point, but it's a self-serving and hypocritical one.

* The way [[Batista]] was treated after ''Over the Limit'' was particularly [[Egregious]], not the least because it happened on [[Downer Ending|his very last night with WWE]]. He and [[John Cena]] competed for the WWE Championship in an "I Quit" match that culminated with Batista giving up after Cena threatened to F-U him off the top of a car. Cena smiled -- and then [[What the Hell, Hero?|F-U'ed him anyway]], nearly killing him! The next night on ''Raw'', Batista showed up (in a wheelchair) to protest Cena's cowardly attack on him and to threaten to bring a lawsuit against WWE, claiming them responsible for nearly ending his career. ''Raw'' General Manager [[Bret Hart]] then appeared and told Batista that he would be granted another chance at the WWE Championship if he could win a qualifying match to be held immediately. When Batista pointed out that he couldn't even ''walk'', Hart rather rudely stated that Batista therefore forfeited. Batista went ballistic and screamed at everyone, announcing that he was quitting WWE for being treated so unfairly -- and ''every single person in the arena booed him'', like they would any other crybaby heel. [[Kayfabe]] aside, it was a [[Your Mileage May Vary|really disrespectful send-off]] for a wrestler who, for the past five years, had been arguably second only to Cena in popularity.

* On the Backlash after Wrestlemania XIV, prior to [[Triple H]]'s match with X-Pac, he and Chyna talked about how much of a [[Ungrateful Bastard]] X-Pac was as he was the reason he got a job in the then-WWF in the first place. While Triple H was a heel at the time and could be dismissed as a [[Jerkass]] trying to justify himself betraying DX, [[Fridge Logic|after thinking]] about ''Chyna'' betraying Triple H for the Corporation and how he was all alone with none of the other DX members coming to his aid, it's no surprise that Triple H decided to sell out his buddies in DX.

* When [[Jerry Lawler]] wrestled [[The Miz]] for the WWE title, the next Raw, [[Michael Cole]] did have a point in that Lawler was partially at fault, although not in the way he intended or the way he said. While the point Cole made ''was'' slightly valid, it really ''wasn't'' Lawler's place to interrupt a new champion's victory celebration, but The Miz is a frankly pathetic heel who more or less cheated to win his title and most faces would have done the same, there was a point in that Lawler technically did screw himself out of the win. While yes, Cole did pull him off the ladder and temporarily stop him from winning, Lawler berated and then assaulted Cole on this for at least a full minute. If Lawler had simply given Cole a well-deserved punch in the mouth and gone back to his business, Lawler would have been champion. Although it was still fun to see Michael Cole get beaten down.

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* A staple of the comedies of [[Aristophanes]]:

** Is a contest or debate between representatives of traditional ideals and new ways of thought, with the new ones exposed as dangerous, and the traditional side proving decisively victorious. [[Older Than They Think|(Sound familiar?)]] Unfortunately for the playwright's point, most of these debates consist of the supposedly sophistic side making a good argument which the traditional side dismisses out of hand as blasphemy, without making any intelligent counterarguments. Then people follow the wrong argument because it makes more sense (it's even [[Lampshade Hanging|lampshaded]] in ''[[The Clouds|Clouds]]'') and bad things happen to them as a result.

** That makes it sound like Aristophanes may have been parodying both sides, telling the people who he otherwise agreed with that "you can't just say 'that's blasphemy' because it doesn't address their appeal to the masses and rings hollow; you have to actually explain why they're wrong". It's like a religious person making fun of both [[Richard Dawkins]] and [[Jack Chick]]. The bad things that strike the followers of the new ways are Aristophanes' attempt to do just that.

* Moliere's ''[[Don Juan]]'':

** In what might be an [[Invoked Trope]] example of this, the play is ostensibly condemning its evil atheist [[Villain Protagonist]] and most of the other characters remark on how horrible a person Juan is, including his [[Bumbling Sidekick|servant]], Sganarelle. The thing is, Sganarelle is certainly no saint himself besides being too much of a coward to stop Juan, is happy to profit from Juan's evil actions. Thus, both contemporary audiences and modern ones tend to think that instead of validating the views of [[Moral Guardians]], Sganarelle instead serves to make Don Juan's philosophy actually come across as better, and some of Moliere's contemporaries considered the play "diabolical" for this reason.

** Quite a few plays from that time period revolve around what is essentially their version of Shock Rock -- a [[Magnificent Bastard]] has a wonderful time doing all those things the Church says are so awful, and then at the end he gets dragged into Hell to appease the [[Moral Guardians]] with what is effectively an [[And That's Terrible]] ending.

* In ''[[Legally Blonde]]'': Callahan points out that Enrique being flamboyant, effeminate, and knowing a lot about shoes does not automatically imply he is gay. He even sings a song about it -- "Gay, or European?" in order to illustrate the difference. Callahan ends up sexually harassing Elle and thus being one of the bad guys. And Enrique did turn out to be gay. But Callahan is right that effeminate does not automatically equal gay.

* In ''[[Porgy and Bess]]'', "It Ain't Necessarily So," which argues that sin is a nonissue since most of the Bible is probably false, is the primary [[Villain Song]] of a cocaine dealer and bootlegger who tries to trick the male lead into incriminating himself for ([[Pay Evil Unto Evil|justifiable]]) murder, forcefeeds cocaine to the formerly addicted female lead, and blackmails her into moving up the coast with him. In the coming decades, it was taken up by numerous jazz and rock singers without a hint of irony.

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** Several episodes often centered on Hank opposing some person or organization that conflicted with Hank's view of life, and Hank is almost always portrayed as being the correct person in these conflicts, though many of the apparent straw men often had good enough positions. Occasionally, however, Hank would lampshade it.

** A particular example comes in "Reborn to Be Wild", where Bobby finally gets interested in religion thanks to a group of hip skaters who are also devout Christians. Hank reacts with horror and tries to force Bobby back into more traditional avenues of worship, while the hip preacher says that Christianity needs to do more than an hour-long lecture every week if it wants to attract the younger generation. While Hank does ultimately make a good point (he doesn't want Bobby to treat faith as just another fad), this only comes at the very end of the episode, after 20 minutes where he's treated as right despite being portrayed as an intolerant Luddite.

* ''[[The Powerpuff Girls]]'': In the episode ''Equal Fights'', the character [[Femme Fatale]] makes a good point about the lack of original female superheroes, though this is [[Played for Laughs]] considering the [[Self-Referential Humor|source media]].

** More accurately the girls accepted her premise but ultimately rejected her conclusion that the shortage of female superheroes and supervillains means she should be allowed to continue her crime spree.

* One episode of ''[[Phineas and Ferb]]'' has Candace decide to give up on trying to bust her brothers. The show presents this as wrong, and Candace changes her mind at the end, but since Candace has spent many, many episodes [[Failure Is the Only Option|trying and failing to bust her brothers]], usually because of some sort of [[Deus Ex Machina]], her decision actually looks sensible.

* ''[[X-Men: Evolution|X-Men Evolution]]:''

** When Lance joined the Brotherhood to be with Kitty Scott doesn't trust him and eventually accuses him of being behind a series of joyrides which have totalled the various X-Vehicles. He's presented as being in the wrong for not trusting Lance and being so aprehensive, in order to motivate Lance [[Status Quo Is God|to stick with the Brotherhood]], even after Scott realizes he was being a dick about it and appologizes. However, Scott had every right to be suspicious and aprehensive as A) Lance had only recently developed feelings for Kitty, and until recently was a very aggressive criminal who regularly caused a lot of property damage, B) Was only interested in joining because of Kitty, and had no interest in learning (and when Evan showed no interest in learning, they were going to give him the boot for it), C) The moment when Scott is supposed to come off as being a dick about it was when he reactivated something in order to trip Lance up for a joke, which was ''massively out of character for Scott anyway'', and was in retaliation for Lance's previous acts of jerkery towards Scott, D) Scott did actually try to welcome him at first, but became disuaded when Lance screwed up two different lessons for no other reason than to be funny, and was way behind the newbies in terms of skill, regularly throwing up and coming in last in races, E) That Scott spected him of the joyrides, as did Logan, because of both great reason (Lance had taunted Scott about it after his car was destroyed) and that when confronted about it he not only doesn't deny it, but ''later actually admits it'' in order to anger Scott. Scott was supposed to come off as being a hostile jerk, and to many he did, but even people who like Lance have noted he wasn't exactly an innocent little flower here. If he had said that he didn't do the joyrides, actually got his act together and did the lessons, and didn't respond to Scott's few attempts at being friendly with uncalled for hostility himself, he could have became a valued member of the team.

** A small one in a later episode, ''Cajun Spice'', had Remy kidnap Rogue, play up their similarities and show her a good time, they try to get her to help him save his adopted father. She gets mad upon finding out the truth, but comes to his rescue later, and defends him when Logan gets ready to cut him to ribbons. Except, this is forgetting that Gambit had ''drugged, kidnapped, threatened, and manipulated Rogue'', but the fact he's doing it for a noble cause and appologizes once she finds out seems like they were trying to gloss over the fact that, well, he was being ''very'' sleezy about it.

* In the [[Digital Piracy Is Evil]] episode of ''[[The Proud Family]]'', enough people pirate the music that the local music store loses its customers because they don't bother to buy music from him when they can get it for free. Despite how much of the episode is obviously exaggerated; that scenario is actually plausible. Especially since they don't start losing money (and customers) when just ''Penny'' downloads music.

* Often occurred on ''[[Daria]]'', though this could often be chalked up to [[Values Dissonance]], Daria often took positions that the show's initial target audience of anti-social teens would agree with but most wouldn't, but those opposed to her would be portrayed as [[Informed Wrongness|obviously wrong]] by emphasizing how shallow, stupid or petty they were, even when they weren't that unreasonable.

** The episode where Daria ends up on the yearbook committee is a prime example. Daria convinces the teacher overseeing it to cut the clubs and sports sections from the yearbook, primarily out of spite toward those involved. The show tries to keep sympathy on Daria's side by making everyone trying to stop this be extremely underhanded and shallow, despite the fact that they just want a standard yearbook feature and Daria is mostly just being petty. In the end the sections are restored to the yearbook after one teacher getting shafted by it assaults the overseeing teacher and gives him a vicious beating, neither teacher is portrayed as sympathetic, but [[Unfortunate Implications|somewhat disturbingly]] [[Abuse Is Okay When It Is Female On Male|the scene is simply played for laughs.]]