The Elder Scrolls/Headscratchers: Difference between revisions

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** Why not? Anyway, the Altmer actually believe that they're descended from lesser Aedra. That's why the Thalmor hate Talos, he represents Man, who is local to Nirn, and Lorkhan, the trickster-god who trapped them and bound their power to Nirn.

** In terms of active major gods, the elder scrolls universe only seems to have the daedra (17 since the events of oblivion), the nine divines (9 in total), light and logic (2), Magnus, Ebonarm and mannimarco. That's only 30 major gods, which, as the above poster pointed out, is very little compared to many real life polytheistic religions

* The legal system bugs me. You can go on a killing spree and then simply pay a fine! How the smeg does that work in terms of justice? Its basically enforced anarchy in a system that favors the rich!

*** It's the original manuscript of ''Saryoni's Sermons''.

** The rich would not have a problem with that, and the poor don't get a choice.

*** Apparently ideas like this were considered but the AI, when made so "dynamic", encountered all sorts of bugs. Judging by how badly the AI handles in the vanilla game, even when going through preset motions... it's probably just as well. Also while it may have been more "immersive", it would be frustrating if you could not start or progress in a quest because a crucial NPC was in jail due to events beyond your control.

** If I recall correctly, the actual legal system employed by the Norse worked something like that - one found guilty of murder was obliged to pay a fine to the deceased's kin, and if they couldn't pay they were jailed or exiled.

** Possibly Morrowind's history as part of the First Empire of the Nords, and its border with Skyrim, means the emnity towards Nords is a little different to that felt to the other races. Dagon Fel, of course, is mostly Nords, so it's possible he isn't an 'outlander' per se. One could argue that the dislike should be stronger, seeing as a war was fought to kick them out, but as that was a very long time ago, any descendents of those Nords or those now associated with that ethnos may be accepted as natives, moreso at least than the resented Imperials and those associated with them.

** The Camonna Tong's policies extend beyond being racist - there are real-life anti-immigration groups which have members from ethnic minorities. The Cammona Tong do not like foreigners but, while most of their members may be racist, "officially" they "only" want an outlander-free Morrowind. It could be that they hired a Nord and promoted him to a notable position to combat allegations of racism in the past and to possibly garner more sympathy for their cause... they're bigoted, but they're not stupid, and they know that they're campaigning for an unpopular cause.

** Easily. Since the Elder Scrolls actually have ''nothing'' to do with the Emperor.

*** It's a joke..but seriously, have you ever noticed how the emperor is practically involved with either starting the "main quest" or ordering you to do something that leads you to the main quest, somehow? He's more or less the reason you're even doing stuff in ''Arena'', sends you to start the quest in ''Daggerfall'', pardons you and sends you to Morrowind, then pretty much starts the quest in ''Oblivion''.

* In Morrowind, the Daedric Face of Inspiration (daedric_fountain_helm) looks like a leering demonic face, while the Daedric Face of Terror (daedric_terrifying_helm) looks like a fountain. Did the graphics files get switched?

** Taking a second's look at the filenames you have posted there I can say, yes, the names were switched for some reason, probably accidentally. Why is that an issue?

** Who says he's ''not'' influencing the events of Oblivion? He's a ''Deadra'' just because you don't ''see'' him doesn't mean he's not involved.

* To all those people who condemn the Necromancers' nature in ''Oblivion''...you are aware that at the time of ''Oblivion'', the Necromancers were being lead by ''[[Omnicidal Maniac|Mannimarco]]'', right?

** However, it is hinted and believed by some of the fandom that the Mannimarco in ''Oblivion'' is not the same as the historical one. Rather, the theory holds that he was just an extremist Necromancer who rallied the other Necromancers to his cause by impersonating Mannimarco. This theory is there to explain his [[Character Derailment]], but it can also explain why their views seem particularly extreme in ''Oblivion''.

* If they remembered to have the Shivering Isles expansion overwrite Sheogorath's original voice files with the SI version for the Sheogorath daedric quest in Oblivion, and even remembered to have Haskill be the voice-over {{spoiler|if you waited until after you had become Sheogorath to start that quest}}, then why couldn't they remember to also patch the main quest line when you needed the blood of a daedra lord? Couldn't you have just told Martin {{spoiler|"Blood of a daedra lord? Sure, no problem, just let me open a vein. I'm Sheogorath you know."}}

** {{spoiler|well, you're ''not'' really Sheogorath, or a deadra lord. You have power over a deadric sphere, yes, but that doesn't change the fact that you're a mortal from mundas, and mortals aren't deadra... unless, of course, you buy the Mythic Dawn's theory that mundas is simply Akhulakan's sphere and mortals are actually the equivalent of dremora, in which case you are a deadra lord, and this is still a plot hole. Either you just don't think of it, or your inability to use your own blood objectively proves that the Mythic Dawn was mistaken-- whichever answer you prefer. Elder Scrolls games like being ambiguous.}}

*** The Mythic Dawn theory makes humans minor daedra, not Princes whose blood would suffice for the ritual, otherwise you could have just found a daedra heart/elemental salts/scamp skin.

** Actually.. {{spoiler|You do get mantled into Sheogorath. It's heavily implied this happens every 1,000 years, plus... [[All There in the Manual|it says on the box in addition to Haskill's dialogue if you happen to do the quest for Wabbajack after you complete Shivering Isles.]]}}

** All of the stores in the Market District seem to be monitored by a committee (the Society of Concerned Merchants) of some kind, to ensure that there is little competition - it may be that there is an enforced monopoly on bookstores. Bear in mind that while it may not be enormous, the First Edition has its proximity to the Arcane University in its favour, and it apparently has the capacity to procure rarer books like the Mythic Dawn Commentaries for its clients.

* If nobody knows who the Grey Fox is, how can his list of crimes include tax evasion? You can't tax somebody when you don't know who they are.

** Knowing him he's probably BOASTED about it at some point. Besides He's the damn Grey Fox. If you hit him with something other than murder chances are he {{spoiler|or his predecessors and the newest [[Player Character|Fox]]}} has.

** Given that we've seen Hieronymous Lex arrest his own informant for allegedly performing the crime ''she informed him was going to be committed'', I think we can safely say that he issues arrest warrants on a seriously woolly definition of 'probable cause'.

** The Camoran line shares descent with the Septims, going back to the first half of the Third Era. It's [[All There in the Manual]].

*** Considering how utterly crappy the imperial guard is and how stretched thin it is, it's no wonder that they don't bother cleaning up the forts. Besides, they just lost their emperor, and some unholy thing is running around the country gaining control of all the guilds, the city guard, and is probably the most loved thing in the country and could most likely take over the country with a word. Oh, [[Arson, Murder, and Jaywalking|and there's a demonic invasion from Oblivion that was spearheaded by killing their emperor.]] They simply have more important crap to worry about.

*** If the forts were just out in the back-country, I would agree, however this is just ridiculous. A number of bandit/goblin/undead infested ruins are right next to roads, with Fort Ash being right on top of a road. And judging by the states of those fortresses, they have been abandoned for a loooong time. It's just weird that this empire, whose entire shtick is having the most powerful, organized military in the world, has apparently not held a single location for a hundred years or more. For that mattter, where was this army during the oblivion crisis? Sure, there were the city guards, but that can't be the only members of the army, right?

**** Actually, this is something I have asked myself before and came up with a bit of Fridge Brilliance. Yes, the Empire DOES have an expansive army; we've seen them. However, we have NOT seen them in Cyrodiil, we've seen them in Morrowind. In Morrowind and the other provinces, according to in-game books, especially the "wild" provinces such as Morrowind, Black Marsh, and Elsweyr, there is a strong Imperial presence because these discontent and untamed border provinces are where the Imeperial Legion is needed; NOT in the centrally located, relatively peaceful home province of the Imperials. The Legion we see in Oblivion is a skeleton crew; a very minimal force for the few internal affairs that would pop up. The forts that dot Cyrodiil are relics from bygone eras when the Imperials where beset by enemies on all sides and needed those forts just to hold their own borders. By the time of the Oblivion Crisis, the only major threat is the internal one of the provinces. Any remote chance of an outside invasion, say by the Akaviri, would also be better repelled by forces in the provinces as well, rather than in centrally located Cyrodiil. The reason there are so many long abandoned forts, unoccupied forts is the same reason why the heartland of the greatest empire in Tamriel had to resort to militia to fend off an invasion of demons. Cyrodiil HAS no army any longer. The Legion is in the Empire's provinces, not its capitol.

* The Gray Prince is the son of an orc and a human vampire. However, vampirism is a disease in this game, so there is no reason why he should even have the pale skin inherited from his father.

*** What bothers me is that after he learns he's part-vampire, he gets all angsty and lets you kill him dead in the battle for the title of Grand Champion. Yes, to everyone else, vampires are [[Complete Monster|Complete Monsters]], but he's proven himself to be the greatest fighter ever. Surely if they learnt that HE was part-vampire, they wouldn't do a [[Heel Face Turn]] and order his immediate death. They'd probably go "Well, as long as he's not killing folks and/or sucking their blood, he's ok in our book." Also, why did it take a complete stranger handing over his father's journal to learn that he was part-vampire? He never had any desire to suck blood out of people?

**** Become a vampire. Now go for a while without sucking blood. People try to kill you. And they know you're a vampire who DOESN'T suck blood. Now then, if people figured out he was part vampire but didn't know he had no desire to suck blood, then they would probably kill him because they think he NIGHTLY sucks blood.

** Exactly. It was the shock. It's like if all you knew was that your dad fought in WWII and that he was a great fighter, a hero to his country, blahblahblah....only to discover that he was also part of the Gestapo agency and really admired Hitler. One doesn't recover from something like that without a lot of help.

*** Except Lovidicus was a GOOD man and NOT a [[Complete Monster]]. The journal basically shows he was a decent fellow, if vampiric, and only became a ravenous monster when his bigoted mistress cut him off from sustenance.

* Okay, complete the Arena and become Grand Champion. Then go talk to the Blue Team Gladiator and he'll be very sad/disappointed that the Grey Prince is dead and bitterly tells you "Congratulations, Grand Champion. Hope it was worth it!" Um, excuse me? He should've known that sooner or later, someone was going to kill his friend in battle, and if he progressed far enough, he'd have to end up killing his buddy himself. What, they were going to talk to the Bladesmaster and say "I don't want the Grand Champion to fight anymore." and Owyn just says "sure"? It's the bleeding ARENA, you stupid Gladiator! Sorry I killed the man. Should've told me before I challenged him!

** Sure, he almost certainly knew someone would eventually kill his friend, but that doesn't mean he has to be happy about it...

*** Okay, well, when you become the Champion, just leave it as that. Some actually do want to kill the orc and become Grand Champion.

*** Firstly, no, it isn't something to take for granted that someone would eventually kill his friend. No one had had the courage to actually challenge the Prince for the title in years; whenever he preformed it was against monsters for exhibition. Its perfectly reasonable to assume that the Prince would one day simply retire. He's not a slave; he's there by his own choice. And he could leave by his own choice. Secondly, just to repeat the point, he doesn't have to be happy about the fact someone killed his friend. He had apparently gotten so used to the idea that no one had the balls to challenge the Prince, let alone the skill to do it. That reality being shattered likely shocked him.

* The assassination of Uriel Septim in ''Oblivion'' bugs me for one reason: you, the player, are the ''sole survivor'' of said assassination--barring one Blade who ''does not leave the scene''--but once you leave the sewers, you can travel anywhere in Tamriel, including right there in the Imperial City, and discover that the news of the Emperor's death has preceded you. How hard would it have been to script in a little delay? Taking the Amulet of Kings to Weynon Priory would have felt more realistic if you'd been given a line like, "Hey, the Emperor's dead. Here's his necklace."

** The assassin's put word out for some reason?

** Remember that this is a fantasy setting - assuming Baurus (or even the Emperor himself) didn't use some kind of spell to alert the Council, the Dragonfires extinguising certainly would. Also, [[Space Compression]] - just because you can travel from the sewer exit to the Imperial City in a matter of minutes, in-universe the trip might take at least an hour (looking at the supposed size of the Imperial City isle) - plenty of time for word to spread. As a Council-funded endeavour, the ''Black Horse Courier'' would be able to publish any details almost as soon as the Council knew.

** The fact that the Emperor's sons are dead and that Blades were escorting the Emperor from Palace to Prison suggests that Mythic Dawn was attacking for quite some time, so Elder Council knew his life is at risk. And when the Emperor dies, the Dragonfires extinguish. Knowing that the Emperor's life is at risk, Elder Council, or Okato alone probably have spent some time in Temple of the One and when the Dragonfires extinguished, he, as the head of the Elder Council, ordered Black Horse Courier to print the "Emperor's Dead" issue.

* Why is there a giant sized chair, club, hourglass and crystal ball in the basement of the imperial palace? They're at least 20x normal size and under guard by the imperial watch in a restricted area, which would lead one to think they're some kind of special artifacts, but I can't find any explanation for them in the game or on the internet. This is really bugging me!

** I would probably say they were just Easter Eggs. Or, if you wanna stretch it, the giant chair is the Throne of the Emperor himself...

* It always bothered me how some people believe you never did anything to deserve the title of Champion of Cyrodiil and that Martin did all the work. This is simply not true. {{spoiler|''You'' liberated Kvatch and made recovery a possiblity. ''You'' destroyed one of the Mythic Dawn's main strongholds. ''You'' stymied the invasion by destroying hundreds of Oblivion Gates. ''You'' saved Bruma from a Daedra attack before it even occurred. ''You'' destroyed Dagon's best weapon (the Siege Engine). ''You'' killed Mankar Camoran and wiped out the Mythic Dawn once and for all. ''You'' retrieved the Amulet of Kings.}} Yes, Martin's ultimately the one who saves the day, but none of it would have been possible without your efforts.

** Probably because it's easier for the writers to just say "Martin saved the day" since there is no list of names to choose from and there is a ''shitton'' of possible combinations that might all conflict each other - you'll notice that they actually tried to make it seem like a bunch of ''Daggerfall'''s endings were canonical and that Uriel has never mentioned that he was trapped in Oblivion for awhile during the events of ''Arena''.

** One could say that about many, many A-grade cRPGs. Looking through my collection I think there was one game that I didn't have some major issues, and there's at least two here that can't be finished without first being patched.

* Thieves Guild Spoilers!! {{spoiler|It is revealed in a very late TG quest that anyone who reads the Elder Scrolls start to progressivley go blind. So when your character sees this scroll, reads it (as you do before you take it, like with any book/scroll), why is he/she not stricken with blindness? Does it require that one continually read the scroll, not just scan it like your character seemed to do?}}

** Well, Boethia(h) apparently has influence over several planes of Oblivion; he says in his quest dialogue that "I shall open a portal for you to '''one''' of my realms," implying that he controls more than one. As for Peryite, you just get told that his followers are trapped in ''a'' plane of Oblivion, not necessarily ''his'' plane of Oblivion.

** If you cheeck the quest markers, the location is actually called the Realm of Peryite. It raises strange questions:

3) Why, being the Daedric Prince and serving as the embodiment of his own plane, can't Peryite kick the souls of his followers out of his plane AND kill Dremoras who aren't happy to see neither you, nor the souls of worshippers. In fact, he acts very happy and relieved when you find his shrine. Can't he control his plane? }}

** Taking a [[Wild Mass Guessing]] route, I'd say that Dagon tried to get other Daedric lords follow his dark crusade against Nirn. Peryite refused and Dagon's forces invaded his plane to the point of changing it's general view to that of the Dagon's (like Jyggalag and his Forces of Order change the aspects of Sheogorath's realm). That's why dremoras want to kill you and torture souls, and Peryite is hardly holding his realm in one piece to actively help you.

* Oblivion: How is it possible to poison your weapon when you're ''underwater''?

** [[Wild Mass Guessing|It's a non-washable paste. It only emulsifies in blood.]]

** It didn't ruin it for me. It made sense why the Blades look like European versions of the Japanese samurai. They're old, the history going back into time immemorial. Same with the Samurais. They are an old ideal, going back hundreds of years.

** Um... if you paid attention to the history of Tamriel it would all make sense. The "Feudal Japan" bits were imported from the other side of the world, and preserved solely through isolated tradition. And if you think having Akavir be a Feudal Japan while Tamriel's Rennaissance Europe is wierd, then how do you justify the difference in real life? They're both on opposite sides of their respective worlds.

** Your character might have just been transferred to the Imperial City's specific dungeon from another dungeon-there's one in every major city in Cyrodiil, after all. When Captain Renault questions why there's a prisoner in the cell, Glenroy says that it was probably due to a "usual mixup at the watch." Uriel Septim implies that you might have ended up in this specific cell due to direct intervention from the Nine Divines. Point is, you could have been in prison for a long time before the game started without necessarily having been in ''this'' specific prison all the while.

* Going off of the Fighter's Guild question above, I have two specific things about the questline that leave me scratching my head.

*** I got the feeling that was the point. He's kind of [[The Scrappy]] of the Fighters Guild missions. There's not supposed to be any emotional weight there, he exists just to be another pest you get to swat (except you've probably wanted to swat this one since you met him but weren't allowed to by guild law). As for why he kept blowing off his missions, he was probably too much of a coward to do them, but used the "I don't get paid enough to do this" excuse. His greed probably lead him to join Blackwood, ignoring the likely danger (assuming they don't just abandon all their dangerous missions like they did with Azani Blackheart). It's likely Blackwood Company would've scrapped him (or worse) before long (assuming the Hist-sap wasn't actually making him useful).

* What happened to the guy who voiced the Dunmer characters in Morrowind? His voice was heard in one of Oblivion's developer diaries but in the actual game all male elves use the same voice-actor. (Then again, considering all the other things that were shown in the developer diaries only to be left out...)

 

* Here's a major one for Oblivion- the PC starts out in the imperial prison, presumably locked up for a crime(anything from murder to picking up some random object- Cyrodill's justice system is pretty strict) and almost promptly escapes when the emperor opens the hidden passage. How come no one is looking for this escaped prisoner? Given that every crime you commit, even with no witnesses, is immediately reported to every guard in the game, it seems funny that your prior crime and subsequent escape are practically written off by the legal system. Were you assumed dead? Did Baurus tell everyone the emperor chose you for a task? Or are crimes automatically pardoned through an "escape prison" loophole?

** I agree. Vincente implies that he knew you were the one who escaped as he discusses with you the contract to eliminate {{spoiler|Valen Dreth}}. This is confirmed with the two guards that have a conversation, particularly the line, "...Since that other one [you] got away, he's the only one rotting down here."

** It might have been something really minor - heck, you could have been put in for sleeping in the streets of the imperial city, yet fate put you in there. Or maybe [[Percy Jackson and The Olympians|Azura put you there and wiped everyone's memories about you]].

* Another one- I somehow racked up 3 murders during the Shivering Isles main quest series(I think that fighting any of the Apostles counts as murder if you're wearing their robes) and got a visit from Lucien. I didn't want to do the DB quests(my character resurrected the Knights Of The Nine and defeated Umaril, rose to the rank of Fighter's Guild master, and became Sheogorath in a heroic victory, so was more or less noble) but since it can't be turned down, I cheated by attacking him. I was in the Fighter's Guild main hall in Chorrol so 3 FG members ended up wiping the floor with him. Now then, here's what I don't get- the DB supposedly sees you when you first commit murder but if you choose to end the DB quest by killing Lucien, then they... do nothing. Don't they notice you offing one of their higher-ranking men if they can see any murder? I would've thought they'd retaliate but in the game, killing Lucien ends the DB quest and no more is heard. Attacking him isn't even considered assault by the game's crime system. It just seems odd to me that the DB literally just doesn't care if you kill one of their speakers when he offers you a place in their group.

** It's possible that getting murdered by potential recruits is simply considered an occupational hazard for Speakers. They're sent after sociopaths all the time, it's probable that they're attacked as often as not.

** Alternatively, Lucien was the one watching you in the first place. So when you kill him, the Dark Brotherhood is not observing you, and you get away scot-free.

** Perhaps he recruited them. Personally, Oblivion being Oblivion, I wouldn't look too much into why people look, well, different.

 

** [["Stop Having Fun!" Guys]] aren't exactly the most rational of people...

** Having finally gotten the chance to play ''Skyrim'', I think it's not an issue of losing the pre-made classes, but an issue in losing the classes altogether -- with no set of major skills that exclusively affect levelling, it can be a pain when your heavy armour sword-and-shield fighter accidentally reads a bunch of magic skillbooks and gains an empty level from it.

* I may have missed something here in ''Oblivion''. Basically, here's the gist of what Martin tells you about the quest "Blood of the Divines"

My issue is the last line. Basically, according to lore, the first emperor ascended and became the god {{spoiler|Talos}}. Now, Martin is a priest. He obviously worshipped the Nine. So how could he not have figured it out for himself? It would take only two minutes at best: "Hey, we need the {{spoiler|blood of the Divines.}} Now, out of all the gods, which one used to be a living person? Ah! Of course! {{spoiler|Tiber}}! I wonder if his armor is still around, and if there's some of his blood left on it?" I swear, I think Martin was being unusually stupid there... Don't tell me 'Martin may well have done that' because Martin's dialogue implies he knew next to nothing about {{spoiler|Tiber becoming Talos}}.

* The ''intended'' implication was probably that the secret passed down was that Tiber Septim's armor is still around, and they know exactly where it is, so Jauffre's solution is providing the second part of your proposed reasoning - Martin doesn't have ''that'' much of a reason to think Tiber's armor is still around and still has his blood on it. The dialogue doesn't really make that clear, though, so...

** (OP here) Ah, so basically the implication is that Martin did ask himself "Which god was once a human being?", then went to Jaufre and asked, "Hey, um, is there any relics of Tiber Septim lying around per chance, still?"

*** That's the idea. Mind, the game doesn't give one much to work with, but at least it is a better implication than 'Martin is either unusually stupid at the time or doesn't even have a basic knowledge of the faith he is a priest of', so...

** Roughly the same size as in Oblivion, but with fewer empty areas.

* So what's the average lifespan of someone living in Tamriel? Do people in this world live about as long as we would have in a similair setting? Do all races live for about the same length of time? Do all Elves live to be 200 or more? What about Khajiit and Argonians?

** I don't think definite numbers have ever been set down; Uriel was pretty spry for an 87 year old but didn't look like he had much left in him, so I'd put humans down for real world lifespans adjusted for region and access to restoration magic. You do meet at least one elf in Skyrim, a dunmer, who mentions that she's been around for over two hundred years and most elves imply they live considerably longer than humans. Orcs are implied to have somewhat shorter life spans than humans (a very likely allegorical ingame book says that all humans once lived as long as elves, that they were cursed with accelerated aging by one of the gods, and that another god took the bulk of that curse and slapped it on the orcs, drastically reducing their own lifespan).

*** He was a contemporary (he was born before Nerevar, actually), but Telvanni wizard-lords are not the most reliable way to decide lifespans - they explicitly have access to and use life-lengthening magic of sorts that goes beyond the pale for ordinary people (and powerful wizards tends to live longer in general). A problem is that we ''do'' have words on the lifespan of the other Mer (at least, the Altmer)... but those words are connected to an average lifespan for the Dunmer that Skyrim repeatedly contradicts as being too low.

* Why is it that people will use the strongest locks available to safeguard used paintbrushes, worthless earthernware, and spools of yarn?

* In Oblivion, how the hell does the Mages' Guild get away with using the protagonist as a mercenary to hunt down all the necromancers? Their rules forbid necromancy, yes, but they explicitly mention that Imperial Law doesn't. It's like if the Fighter's Guild made a law against using poisoned arrows, and so they sent you to kill all the people who use them in spite of its legality.

** They don't. You join the Mages' Guild, so you aren't a mercenary, and the Mages' Guild ''doesn't'' send you to hunt down all the necromancers. They send you to attack the Order of the Black Worm, who (beyond the Guild's banning of necromancy by Guild members, which, while misguided, was within the rights of the Council of Mages) had struck first and are led by a known criminal.

 

[[Category:Games/Headscratchers]]

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