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Line 3: That's actually semi-based on real voodoo beliefs about loa. That's also on the assumption that the loa want what Facilier thinks they want. What if, on the other hand, what they really want is Facilier's soul? ** Loa aka spirits are believed to be attracted to what is most similar to them and easiest to possess / [[Danny Phantom\|Over Shadow]] in order to work ritual ~~magic -- in~~magic—in this case he certainly has an army of selfish spirits following him around because some spirits require payment each summoning and others require it BEFORE even thinking about them. * This troper was incredibly irked that Mama Odie had such a minor role in the film, despite the fact that a good portion of the film is spent trying to find her. Sure, she is the ''discover for yourself'' kind of person but even with {{spoiler\|Ray's death scene}} she should have done something. Think of how [[Crowning Moment of Awesome\|cool]] it would've been to have her and Juju [[Deus Ex Machina\|come in]] and [[Badass Grandma\|face off]] [[Wizard Duel\|against]] Facilier at the end! She's such an interesting character and Ron Clements and John Musker really missed the opportunity. Okay, notice that what we see about Mama Odie's powers are themed around sunlight...or rather, her offensive powers at least. There isn't a whole lot of sunlight when she ''could have'' fought Dr. Facilier in the ''middle of the night at Mardi Gras''. Meanwhile Facilier's powers are themed around...shadows. Even in the day...''there are plenty of shadows''. Intensely Agreed. The only thing I didn't like about that film was the final showdown.......there wasn't one. granted this was a fear i had going in (A working class chef and a womanizing playboy prince against a powerful voodoo magician, probably wouldn't have worked out well, specially cuz they're frogs) Heck, why wasn't Mama Odie seen in the restaurant at the end? Everyone else was. That would have been the icing on a happy ending cake! Because if Mama Odie had gone off to fight Facilier, however awesome such a fight would have been, it would have undermined a) the overall idea that [[This Is Something He's Got to Do Himself\|the Hero has to defeat the Villain]], not their Mentor or anybody else and b) the film-specific idea that you have to work for your dreams. If Tiana had let someone else save the city and Naveen, or if Odie had stepped in and done it for her, it would have ruined the [[Aesop]]. Also, [[Informed Ability\|how do we know Odie is really powerful enough to take Facilier on]]? Louis claims she has very powerful mojo but he's not completely reliable, what we see during her showstopping number may just be window dressing, and the only magic we actually see her doing is divination. It seems to me her power is knowledge, not flashy mystical ~~showdowns--the~~showdowns—the way she helps them is by telling them to seek what they need, and then eventually revealing the "kiss by a princess" bit, and none of that requires great magic. I do agree, though, that she should have been seen at the restaurant at the end. Maybe she doesn't leave the swamp often? She is 197 after all... * I love the movie, but there's one teeny tiny thing that keeps bugging me: Naveen goes through the city playing the guitar at the end of 'Down in New Orleans' and tries to flirt with Tiana, who dismisses him. They interact about ~~5-10~~5–10 seconds, clearly enough to remember each other's faces and still Naveen mistakes her as a princess in Charlotte's party despite that she still has her hair bound and nothing that would cover her face. Yeah sure, he's probably met (and slept with) hundreds of women, but seriously, you can't forget her face that easily, given that she is a dark-skinned woman in a city, which is still mainly inhabited by white people. It's kind of the sign that, without all they went through, Tiana and Naveen would never have gotten together. It kind of subverts the idea of fairy tales that you are 'destined' to be with your 'one true love'. It furthers the whole point of the movie that WHAT YOU DO ACTUALLY MATTERS. * It's actually a very welcome subversion of the old Disney pattern of "love at first sight" in so many of their other Princess movies. Line 18: Perhaps Mama Odie was kind enough to give them some sort of a magical lift back to town. * Odie's a bit more "hands off" then that. Plus she'd probably be amused by the whole thing. Lets hope that dress was magically light-weight and non-absorbent! [https://web.archive.org/web/20121121042038/http://schellibie.deviantart.com/art/TPATF-Just-Married-147072909 here's what it may be like] [[Word of God]] says they ride Louis home. * And what was Eudora's reaction when her daughter who'd been missing for three days came through the door wearing an enormous sparkly dress (that's probably drenched with swamp mud, per above), along with her new husband and alligator buddy? Line 32: ** Also, now he's not sleeping around all over the globe. * It's never explained whether or not they actually intended for him to marry a rich girl or not - although Facilier does seem to know ''everything'' about you just by looking at you, so maybe that's right. And anyways...I'm sure they initially thought "...huh?" until they met her and saw that the couple was in love, and that she essentially taught Naveen to grow up, or that Naveen seemed to have made her less of a [[Stop Having Fun Guy]]. * I have a feeling that Naveen's parents cut him off because he was a spoiled, inept, [[~~Upperclass~~Upper Class Twit]], like [[~~Bertie~~Jeeves and Wooster (~~Literature~~novel)\|Bertie Wooster]]. (I can't be the only one who sees the resemblance?) They probably assumed it was the steady flow of cash that kept him that way, and the best thing they could do for him is let him go off on his own. To learn about the real world and grow up already, and that marrying rich was just ''his'' plan for getting around giving up his "high" lifestyle. But introducing his parents to the new him, and the woman who was responsible for his newfound maturity? They must've been very happy. * Tiana might have been working class and poor when they married, but the two of them got up a ''very'' successful restaurant not long after which certainly provided them with a steady living. Naveen's parents were most likely pleased that he just was able to settle down with one girl who was very nice and had common sense and a work ethic rather than him philandering and not doing anything useful. Plus, this troper got the impression that the "get a job or marry a rich girl" thing was what Naveen saw as his only options. His parents probably cut him off and were like "okay, you can't rely on our wealth anymore, go off and make your own way in the world". However he managed that would probably be fine with them. ** This is pretty much summed up by the scene where Naveen's parents actually appear and see Tiana, where their facial expressions are best summed up as "Oh, thank ''God'' he found a good one". This troper is convinced that the animators have seen that sentiment in real life. Line 43: I'm sure he's intelligent, I'm just wondering if he's studying up on Political Science and Government while he's waiting tables in New Orleans. ^ That's where Tiana comes in. I'm pretty sure his [[Casanova]] attitude was one of the reasons his parents decided to force his hand; they wanted him to settle down with a practical, down-to-Earth woman who could keep him on his toes. * If Maldonia works like most other monarchies in the world, he ''can't'' be heir to the ~~throne-- he~~throne—he married a commoner after all. If he wanted to eventually be the king, he would have had to marry nobility, which, in America, would be considered someone with money (e.g. Charlotte). So, at least in my mind, as soon as he married Tiana, he's no longer eligible for the throne. ** Keywords being of - for all we know, he could be eligible, but he wouldn't have taken the chance (and given the responsibility to his brother). Tiana actually could have been made the "Queen consort" - in other words, just the king's wife; not really any power over the state of Maldonia. * And with that logic, you just [[Logic Bomb\|completely undid the resolution of the film,]] namely the entire "Once I marry you you are a princess" deal. Congratulations. * That's not true, just because Naveen can't be King doesn't mean he is no longer a Prince. If Naveen became King, his brother would still be known as a Prince, right? If Naveen is ineligible for the throne, that doesn't change the blood in his veins. He's still a Prince, so Tiana's still a princess. * Besides, what magic will except may not be what the law will accept. That might be at least one reason why they got another marriage in a church ''after'' the marriage in the swamp that enabled the kiss to undo the spell. ** Another explanation: Maldonia allows for voluntary ~~abdication -- When~~abdication—When Naveen married Tiana, she became a princess. However, he might have abdicated his position as heir to the throne when they met up with his parents. Considering his [[Character Development]], he wouldn't want to deprive his new wife of her life's dream just so he could go be King. However, if you go by what Monaco allowed with Princess Grace Kelley being able to marry into the royal line and bear heirs then Maldonia could very work like that as well. Not every monarchy works like England, ya know. * England doesn't work like that, ya know. Not in recent years anyway. Heck, there's isn't an "English" monarchy in the first place, ya know, it's a British one. If the monarchy works like the modern British one, then there's no reason he can't be King and married to a commoner. Prince William is most likely to be King one day, and his most likely Queen will be a commoner. * If Princess of Mardi Gras for Charlotte counted as a princess, marrying a commoner couldn't undo Naveen's blood title of Prince. * [[Two Words: Obvious Trope\|Six words]]: [[Screw the Rules, I Make Them\|Screw the rules they make them]] * Exactly. People have to stop thinking of this "cannot marry a commoner and inherit the throne" thing as some unbreakable rule. Just look at real world history. Rules of succession vary with each individual monarchy, and change over time. Basically the rules of succession is ''whatever the reigning monarch wants them to be''. He/She can follow tradition, ''if he/she wants''. He/she can break tradition, ''if he/she wants.'' And the next monarch can change the rules back, or to something else entirely, ''if he/she wants''. Monarchs have ''adopted commoners and named them their heirs.'' Assuming Naveen was ever the heir to the throne (and the fact that he was cut off by his parents suggests he ''wasn't'', because you generally don't do that to the heir. An heir in Naveen's position with similar questions about responsibility hanging over him usually gets appointed to an important but tightly supervised position in the government or army where he would be forced to learn responsibility) his marriage to Tiana will not be a problem with respect to this so long as Naveen's parents like her. Also note that Naveen's father and mother may not necessarily be King and Queen of Maldonia. The son of a prince (or princess) is ''also'' a prince. So Naveen's father might be a prince, and or his mother might be a princess, and neither might be directly in line for the throne, either. It's possible Naveen has an older sibling. Line 63: The logic that was previously on the work's main page under [[Never a Self-Made Woman]] seemed to be that it implied Tiana owes all her success to a male. Makes even less sense in light of the above comments. It's the kind of thing that's not at all sexist in isolation but sometimes sexist in accumulation. One heroine being all "I want to do X because it's a family tradition/because my father was the best X-er ther was" - fine, normal, sweet, etc. When you've seen a ''lot'' of heroines like that, you may start to get a little annoyed. That's all. Doesn't mean this one character's background is offensive in itself. It's more a matter of Tiana's father being consistently given credit for Tiana's good qualities, while her bad qualities are linked to her neglecting to have his good qualities, and that her mother has no influence on her except to provide her with mementos of her deceased father. Tiana is two steps and a headstone away from being a [["Well Done, Son" Guy]]; it isn't sexist that he had a strong influence on her, but all the songs Tiana is involved in don't actually reference any of ''her'' qualities, they reference ''his'' qualities that she picked up from him, and her ultimate goal is ... being just like dad! The viewer absolutely gets to see that Tiana is resourceful, intelligent, determined, capable, and probably one of, if not ''the'' best Disney Princess in terms of non-sexist portrayal, but the ''characters in the movie'', including Tiana herself, only see that ''she's her daddy's daughter'' and attribute none of her positive qualities to her own self. The exception to this is ''Naveen'', which goes further to highlight the romantic validity of their ~~relationship-- he~~relationship—he's the only character who sees her as more than the product of her late father. The [[Never a Self-Made Woman]] entry does specifically say that it is an in-universe example of the trope, for what it's worth. * In regards to every song being about her daddy's work ethic? ''That is precisely the idea.'' Whether she straight misunderstood as a child, or a case of hindsight being 20/85 and cross-eyed, it was Tiana's ''perception'' that her father encouraged her to work hard above all else that was her major character flaw, that she never caught on to his comments that LOVE and FAMILY were what was truly important. That was what Mama Odie was telling her to get over.. She just ended up missing the point. This is all true, but it doesn't really improve the original point: Tiana's entire character is solely influenced by her father. Where most Disney heroines are struggling with teenage rebellion against their dads, Tiana is trying to live up to his image. Where most Disney heroines would be looking to find their own dreams, Tiana wants the dream her father put into her head as a toddler. Has she ever had a seriously independent thought in her life? [[Never a Self-Made Woman]] centers around the idea that female characters can't achieve without a father, brother, or husband to get them into their positions via their own; Tiana defies this in the overall story, but the only criticism anyone has for her is that she's not ''enough'' like her father and doesn't know how to have fun. Nobody gives half a crap about any of her own qualities (mainly because she doesn't have any). * [[Sarcasm Mode\|Yes, because all kids who are influenced by their parents make horrible decisions and must be mindless drones. Of course being influenced by her father means that she never listens to the advice her mother gives her and her character never really develops]]. [[MST3K Mantra\|You appear to have gone rather far in your assumptions.]] *** Come on, now, let's not get passive-aggressive with the tropes. No one ever said anything about mindless drones or bad decisions. Tiana spends most of the movie ''rejecting'' her mother's influence, she even has an entire song number about it, and in fact, she never does take her ~~advice-- she~~advice—she falls in love with Naveen, and ''that'' changes everything for her, but it's got nothing to do with anything her mother said. Her mother's role is mostly to provide exposition ''about her father'' and to give Tiana and Charlotte a reason to have met and become friends. Tiana is never even ''suggested'' to have ever considered any goals in her life other than the restaurant that her father wanted, and the whole movie is about Tiana's journey of what it really means to follow in her father's footsteps. Considering that he's dead before the main plot begins, he actually gets more credit for her achievements than she does. * Correct me if I missed something, but...why didn't Charlotte change into a frog when she kissed Naveen after midnight? When Tiana, who wasn't a princess, tried it, the curse extended to her. Since Charlotte was no longer a princess during the kisses, shouldn't she have turned into a frog as well? * Definitely missing the point with Tiana being compared to her dad. Speaking as someone who in many ways is a female version of her daddy, I get compared to him a lot, good and bad. And both Tiana and her mom obviously miss him a lot, so any little thing that reminds them of him would get mentioned. Thirdly, Tiana's role model is her dad. The point is that she's only focused on the 'work hard for your dreams' part and not the 'keep sight of what's important' part. Her realizing that is part of her character growth and what results in her being a good role model in her own right by the end of the movie. Line 103: I'm guessing the latter. While the FOTOS and Facilier are more like business partners, Facilier's shadow was genuinely friendly toward him. Also, When the FOTOS come to take Facilier away, it seemed just as frightened as him, even cowering behind him at one point. Surprising as I was expecting the shadow to turn on him and throw him into the mouth, considering that it should have been supplied to him by the FOTOS Idea: perhaps, a la [[~~Unknown Armies (Tabletop Game)\|~~Unknown Armies]], shadows are the souls of the human damned. Facilier selling his soul for magic power gave his shadow autonomy. While he's alive, it's cooperative and friendly. Afterward... One interview with Keith David mentioned how the shadow reflects what Facilier is really feeling (such as the transformation into a snake during his song)...maybe his shadow isn't alive so much as it's another part of him. * His shadow is his daemon then? Line 135: And insects don't have butts, they have abdomens. * I don't think Ray's taken any biology/anatomy courses, I don't see why he would know the proper name for it. Humans "using the restroom" ''is''~~-- yeah~~—yeah. Perhaps as a frog, one is more sensitive to the negative stigma of being a frog, leading to a more PC way of saying "slime?" Yeah, but slime has a more varied meaning than just mucus in popular usage. When people think of 'slime', they think of slimy things, like moss, seaweed, snot, oysters, and so forth even though it's not technically 'slime'. Thus, Naveen's clarification of the more ''precise'' meaning. * It kinda bugged me that they never pointed out that Mama Odie is (indirectly, I'll give you) responsible for Ray's death: she's the one who sent them back to New Orleans, as opposed to just marrying Naveen and Tiana on the spot. Line 149: Also, if Mama Odie had changed Evangeline into a firefly, Ray would never have gotten his place in the sky next to her, and two: "Phenomenal Cosmic Powers, Itty Bitty Living Space" much, if she can transform stars? Mama Odie's gumbo pot showed exactly what Mama Odie asked of it: "We need a princess, what cha got?" which gave them the view of Charlotte, who was the only princess at the time. So, they had a deadline, even if only temporarily, the gumbo pot, as magic tends to work in Disney movies, could NOT see that they would fall in love on the way. * Mama Odie is at fault? [[Flat What\|Really?]] Are you actually being serious?! The little old lady, who's seems to choose to help people more on figuring out the right things to do with their life-than just magically make them better (and probably doesn't have it in her power to do freakish amazing feats-she's not Calypso in disguise from the [[Pirates of the Caribbean\|Pirates movies]])-I mean where in PATF does it hint that Mama Odie has a god-like power to turn Stars into insects!?!?!?! She's a human who has limitations...So instead of giving the two youngin's-who are confused in life about their wants and needs and even their own feelings towards each other-some advice, gently trying to point them in the right direction (it's not ''her fault'' Tiana was missing the point) she should instead force these two people to marry (when at that point Tiana wasn't aware of her feelings-so why would she WANT TO ANYWAY?!)-because of the tragic death of our loveable resident firefly-who was stepped on by the villain? [[Sarcasm Mode\|WELL BLOW ME DOWN! And all this time I thought it was usually those guilty of taking the life of another-is the one who ''actually'' '''killed''' that person]] [[Sarcasm Mode\|But nope]], [[Sarcasm Mode\|clearly the one to blame]] [[Alternate Character Interpretation\|is the all-knowing, all-seeing, all-powerful lady]]-that can do feats of amazing magic-that had been never even seen in the canon material, [[And That's Terrible\|who lets a young boy and girl learn on their own about themselves, each other,]] [[Character Development\|and how to better themselves]]-[[Sarcasm Mode\|and what's important in life]], ''instead of having someone tell them what they should do-and do it for them????''<s>Hey [[Deal ~~With~~with the Devil\|wasn't that the schtick]] of the villain in this movie???</s>....'''clearly''' [[Sarcasm Mode\|the correct thing to do]] [[Shotgun Wedding\|force them to wed]] [[Unfortunate Implications\|even if the girl at the time wasn't into pursuing that]]....after all, it's for a good cause anyway because they'll eventually realize their feelings, the bug would still get to live for his short insect life-pining after the woman he loves-in the skies far above his reach, ([[Heroic Sacrifices]] and [[Earn Your Happy Ending\|becomes literal star in the sky to live on forever with your love]] is over-rated anyway!) Louis will get to forever play happily on his trumpet in the swap-never to those adoring crowds like he dreamed-eh, he'll get over it....and the kids will walk away from the movie learning that not getting married on the spot-regardless if one party wasn't wanting it at that time-[[Space Whale Aesop\|is wrong, and will end up killing your best friend]], [[Family-Unfriendly Aesop\|and that forcing love and marriage is ok and less pesky than just learning and accepting to fall in love all on their own.]] Again....[[Flat What\|SERIOUSLY?!]] Never mind the cheapening of Ray's [[Heroic Sacrifice\|heroic, brave and selfless sacrifice]]-or his beautiful eternity being with the love of his life...or the headache inducing blame on Mama Odie of all people, for something she clearly can't foresee. Or the other important things that came from them all going back to New Orleans (like Lewis finally achieving his dream, Tiana's character development, the defeating of the villain, the heartwarming sacrifice of her own happiness Lottie makes for her friend). Or that rather important message of ''working'' to your ''dreams'', and '''not''' taking the ''easy way out''-'''no''' '''matter'''' how ''hard'' life can get? Down, boy! Heel! * I'm a girl, but that's hardly the point...the point is this is such serious [[Insane Troll Logic]]. Now normally I like most people on the internet would say ignore it. However this is such a insult to the movie to have this thought process that it NEEDS to be taken down several pegs. And if I have to rant, my god I will, because this is a harmless Disney movie for god's sake. So no...I will no heel, [[Sincerity Mode\|but thanks for the humor attempt of the situation anyway.]] Line 160: It could be some subtle magical permission thing. Like, the FOTOS were able to drag Facilier off because he owed them a debt and was unable to pay, thus they had some form of power/custody over him. But it could be that they were just unable to kidnap random people on their own. So if Facilier is basically running the town, he has power of it and thus could theoretically have the authority to tell the FOTOS "have at whoever you want". ...but they just as easily dragged Naveen away 3 separate times. Naveen was turned into a frog via the magic the FOTOS gave Facilier. This would have given them power over Naveen by proxy they wouldn't have over others. As to why/how Facilier could give the FOTOS all the wayward souls, I got the impression that for all the power the FOTOS displayed, they could not enter the mortal world completely on their ~~own--they~~own—they required Facilier, or somebody, to use summoning magic/open a gateway or something. Because we never see them active save for when Facilier is around or has already dispatched them on missions. So, assuming he got power over New Orleans, this would enable him to, oh I don't know, call a gathering of townsfolk to City Hall for some sort of "special announcement" (perhaps a lucrative new deal that would give everyone in New Orleans [[Be Careful What You Wish For\|"exactly what they want"?]])...then as soon as they'd all shown up, he opens a gate for the FOTOS, [[Nightmare Fuel\|and...]] * Why did the FOTOS choose that exact moment to take Facilier away. True, the talisman was destroyed, but that was never established as being the source of his power (as he is clearly seen taking it from the FOTOS during his [[Villain Song]] and he used magic several times before that e.g. closing the door, lighting fires, giving that guy hair, his shadow). Plus, as far as this troper can see he's only made three deals with the FOTOS: 1. Giving him Voodoo powers Line 175: Although it's never formally established that the talisman is the source of his power, Facilier does seem to freak out whenever it's threatened. So at least they foreshadowed the fact that breaking the talisman means extreme bad news for Facilier. Even if they never justified it. This Troper got the impression that the talisman was a really expensive magic item, even by FOTOS standards (Perhaps they didn't make it but instead got it from a deal they made with a Voodoo wizard centuries ago, that talisman was an antique item that nobody knows how to make anymore but was the best item for that scheme on hand) thus that talisman wasn't his, it was on loan to be returned immediately after the scheme pays of and the FOTOS get their souls. Breaking the talisman basically meant that not only did this plan fail but so did any other that relied on impersonating people. First, we should not assume that the FOTOS' main intent is for Facilier's plan to succeed. They're playing their own game, and their main goal could easily have been the corruption of Facilier's soul all along, with whatever additional damage he manages to do in the interim just a bonus. This is standard [[Deal ~~With~~with the Devil]] fare. They're probably bound by some agreement not to turn on Facilier unless he fails to meet certain specific obligations, among which is keeping the talisman intact. ** Here's [[Tropers/Ptitletlypxope\|this troper]]'s understanding: though the talisman wasn't the source of his ''other'' powers, it ''was'' crucial to his plan, since it enabled him to disguise Lawrence as Naveen. We clearly see him using the talisman to take a sample of Naveen's blood before using the talisman to turn Lawrence into Naveen. Later, he asks the Friends to bring Naveen back ''alive'' because he needs more of Naveen's blood, so apparently, even though Facilier can use all his other magic without the talismen, the only way he can magically disguise a person (who we'll call "person A" for the convenience of explanation) as another person ("person B) is by using the talisman to take person B's blood, then put the talisman around person A's neck. This apparently "uses" the blood like a car using gasoline, meaning the disguise ends when the talisman "runs out" of blood, and the disguise can thus only be brought back if the talisman is refilled with more blood (which is why Facilier needs Naveen back again). The point is, the film shows that while not the source of Facilier's other powers, the talisman ''is'' the source of the one power he needs for his plan to work; the power to disguise one person as another. Once the talisman is broken, his plan can't work anymore, meaning he has no way to pay the Friends back (though this troper still isn't sure how being in charge of New Orleans enables him to offer the souls of its citizens, but that's already discussed above). * Charlotte's [[Wife Husbandry]] plan [[Squick\|bothers me]]...maybe just because I've seen it [[Twilight (~~Literature~~novel)\|somewhere else]] recently, but still... Some people thought that was a joke. ''"I've seen it [[Twilight (~~Literature~~novel)\|somewhere else]]"'' Well there's your first mistake. Seems to be a bit of a difference between a girl who is more or less mentally a child herself vaguely considering marrying a six and a half year old boy and a boy becoming irreversibly and alarmingly in love with the newly born daughter of the girl he used to love. It's not [[Wife Husbandry]]. That plan is about raising that child to foster positive feelings so it'd be easier to, uh, 'woo' them. Charlotte is hardly in a position to do that. If anything, it's a mild [[Jail Bait Wait]]. Besides, it's not like heaps of normal, non-creepy women have seen a young child actor and were looking forward to see how much of a stud he'll be when he grows up. People were saying this about Elijah Wood when he was a kid - and hey, they were completely right. Line 192: First, it's using classic characters. (So does the Princess and the Frog, true, but in a radically re-imagined way.) Second, it's a sequel. Those sell. * But the Princess and the Frog has also been added to the Disney Princess line, which means lots of merchandise and DVD releases, and soundtrack sales. Sure the Chipmunks might be doing better now, but which one do you think will last in the long run? ** In addition, ''[[Avatar (~~Film~~film)\|Avatar]]'' opened after the first weekend and sucked away a lot of potential viewers, especially teens and adults, and then the crush of Christmas weekend ~~releases -- including~~releases—including ''Alvin'', but also ''[[Sherlock Holmes (~~Film~~film)\|Sherlock Holmes]]'' ~~-- made~~—made matters worse; word of mouth never had a chance to take hold. Moreover, the above three movies have '''much''' more inherent appeal to boys, and ''Princess'' getting mostly good-not-great reviews didn't help its case. * "There's no way I'm kissing a frog and eating a bug on the same day." ~~-- didn~~—didn't she kiss that frog the day ''before''? Maybe within-24-hours; I-haven't-slept-it-off-yet kind of day? * They slept in the hollow tree after the alligators attacked. They met Louis at midday. *** She's probably too {{[[Squick \|grossed out}}]] to really care about how much time has passed, while yeah, she's exaggerating, but this troper always assumed it was just her being too grossed out from her previous squick-that the idea of another squick, that she didn't really think about the amount of time it's been? That or just a goof....? * Dr. Facilier pulled Prince Naveen and Lawrence into an alley. I know it was broad daylight, but couldn't they have seen something bad coming? Well, Lawrence knew something was up from the start, but Naveen is oblivious to the point of hilarity. He's totally enjoying "Friends On the Other Side" as much as the audience up to the point with the snakes, and even then he's just mildly bewildered until there's actual blood involved. Line 233: Not to mention, when Lawrence had Naveen's appearance, he would be handsome, fit, have people fawning all over him, and especially the undivided attention of a beautiful, rich, and charming belle. To have that kind of life, he wouldn't mind handing over the "thinking" work to someone else. Lawrence ''wanted'' money and power. What he ''needed'' was respect. Which do you think Facilier would give him? * You are [[TV Tropes Made of Win Archive]] for that little bit of [[Fridge Brilliance]]. And you also underscore the truth about ~~Lawrence--yes~~Lawrence—yes, he WAS just trading being pushed around by one person for being pushed around by another. The fact he couldn't see this just proves how greedy and lacking in insight he was, and thus such [[Incredibly Lame Pun\|easy prey]] for Facilier. * I know, I know, it's a Disney movie - but proposing to a girl only a day after you met her? Isn't that a bit quick, even by Disney standards? And exactly how much time passed between the engagement and the wedding? It couldn't have been that long, considering that the leasers didn't even have time to officially sell the building yet. ''Isn't that a bit quick, even by Disney standards?'' [[Enchanted\|"And you are..." "Giselle." "We shall be married in the morning!"]] Nope. [[Crowning Moment of Funny\|Lol'd]]! You win forever! [[Fourth Date Marriage\|That's ''long'' for Disney standards.]] It was more like ~~2-3~~2–3 days, and they'd been together the entire 24 hours of every day. That's longer than Snow White, Cinderella, Aurora, Ariel and Jasmine knew their men before they decided they wanted to get married. And a lot of people don't think the Fenners even had another buyer, they were just racist. * Aurora's case is iffy (she and Philip were both betrothed to each other by their parents), Ariel and Eric had just as much time as Tiana and Naveen (Ursula gave Ariel three days), and Jasmine didn't marry Aladdin until the third movie, so technically, Aladdin and Jasmine had the longest time instead of Naveen and Tiana who are tied with Eric and Ariel in terms of how long it took. As for the date between the engagement and wedding, it bugs me to no end. Did they get married as frogs the day of Ray's funeral? As in, Ash Wednesday (bad idea)? Did they get married as humans on Easter Sunday (great idea)? But that contradicts the order of events in the Happily Ever After montage! This troper just assumes that the Happily Ever After montage is out of exact chronological order. Line 264: * Waitaminute. Isn't it already stated that voodoo conjurers can't do a thing for themselves? ** Well, maybe they're using the magic on the animals, not themselves. I thought the "Can't do a thing for myself" was put in because the writers knew that Facilier couldn't impersonate Naveen and seduce Charlotte without getting into ''serious'' [[Unfortunate Implications]] territory, so they put in an in-story block on it and made Lawrence truly necessary. It doesn't necessarily have to be a spell. It could just be a skill; [[Talking Animal~~\|Talking Animals~~]]s all seem to speak the same language, so he could've just learned it the same way he learned to draw magic circles and whatnot. * Mama Odie is '''''HOW'''' old? She could have picked up a few things with the classic "old people are smart" trope, you know. ** Or it could just be that Mama Odie used a different sort of voodoo magic than Doctor Facilier, especially since a lot of his power seemed to come from the FOTOS while Mama Odie did things for herself. Line 297: Except that Naveen ''didn't'' know what he was getting into. Facilier read his future, told Naveen and Lawrence their desires, and then asks if they'd be so kind as to shake his hand. It was never explicitly stated that Naveen would be agreeing to any sort of bargain and he never even came looking for one. Plus, Naveen was turned into a form that let him, throughout the movie, be locked up in tiny containers (twice), squashed with a book (twice), nearly eaten (several times, once by rednecks), and if Facilier had gotten his way, Naveen would have spent the rest of his life locked up and having his blood taken. On the other hand, Lawrence got to steal the life of Naveen (including being in a much younger and better-looking body) and was being set to marry a cute girl who was utterly obsessed with him and filthy rich to boot. He lost his nerve because he was wishy-washy, but never actually did anything to try to stop Facilier. Yes, I'd say he deserved to be arrested. Well, let's go over what Lawrence has done; impersonated someone to the point of stealing their life, aiding in imprisoning someone and using their blood to fuel said impersonation, tricking a woman into marrying him, and then using that false marriage to get at her money. Yeah, I'd say he very well deserves it. (As for Naveen, he at least realizes that he was a fool to make that deal and learns about what's really important. Lawrence doesn't. Ergo, Naveen redeems himself and Lawrence goes to the slammer.) First of all, like the poster said above, it's pretty obvious that Facilier did his own [[Deal ~~With~~with the Devil]] and got exactly what was coming to him. Secondly, Lawrence ''didn't'' get a opportunity to turn his life around, he got an opportunity to ''steal someone else's life'' to gain riches and power that he hasn't earned and, more importantly, doesn't ''deserve''. He's been taken for granted his whole life, sure, but rather than just 'dig deep' to find the courage to stand up for himself or leave to find a job with respect, he takes the easy (and immoral) way out. So here's how you side with Tiana and Naveen - they eventually realized their own flaws and rose above them, while Facilier and Lawrence just screwed themselves over. * Still, because of the way the deal was arranged, Lawrence never got a chance at redemption. He was stuck with Facilier, being constantly misled and intimidated. He was never able to meet up with Mama Odie and hear her advice (which without neither Tiana nor Naveen would've understood their mistakes) All he wanted was money, and respect. Tiana did too. It isn't exactly a bad goal is it. and for one I think Lawrence was still kind-hearted, even after he became a villain. In fact, his kindness was what saved Naveen in the first place. (forgive me if the quote is wrong: "The poor thing was gasping, so I loosened the lid, ever so slightly") As for Facilier, we don't know the logistics of how he could've helped himself, Naveen only had to kiss a princess and break his deal. The Doctor was well and truly trapped, punished for what could've been an honest mistake, made when he was at the end of his rope, like Tiana. I think that after so many years of living with the FOTOS over his shoulder, Facilier just snapped and decided to at least enjoy himself. I pity the two of them, a chance run in with the voodoo queen of the Bayou is the only difference between the two protagonists, and the two antagonists. * Tiana wanted money and respect yes, but she worked honestly for it. She didn't try to trick and swindle people out of it. Yes Lawrence was a bit pathetic, but then his punishment for his crimes (which you cannot deny he committed) weren't nearly as severe as Facilier's (who willing made deals with demons, which ''never'' goes well). In fact, as people noted above, there really wasn't much evidence of what Lawrence did (seeing as most of it was magic), so one could always pretend that he was released on lack of evidence and returned to Maldonia or something. Line 309: ** How do you know what "wayward souls" is defined as? Could be the people you suggested. Could cover ''ever person'' in New Orleans. You say that like it excuses him somehow. Also, how about the fact that he was gleefully going to commit murder? Of course it doesn't excuse him. It does, however, paint him in a little more of a pitiable light. He reminds me a little of Scar that way...before the villain we know, it seems there was a young guy who was kicked and treated like he was worthless, until one day he started getting ~~bitter--and~~bitter—and it was just all downhill from there. Which brings us right back to the want vs. need theme in that he needed respect, to be treated with some decency, but instead threw everything he had into what he wanted, revenge and power. Had it coming, in a nutshell, but it's still sad. * You could argue that about virtually every Disney villain, but there's still the fact that plenty of the protagonists were kicked down and treated badly and made it to the top without screwing over or killing or hurting anyone. Cinderella didn't feel the need to violently retaliate against her stepmother or stepsisters. Belle didn't go on a rampage against Gaston and the townsfolk for belittling her and her father. Tiana, who was in the same position Facilier was (it was pretty obvious that the real estate men were screwing her over on the sugar mill because of her ethnicity) worked her way up the social ladder through honest work, not trickery. It's like someone once said about Gaston from ''Beauty and the Beast'', yes one could possibly see his story as a tale of unrequited love. It's also possible to see Bluebeard's story as a tale of unfinished business. There are some points of view that just weren't meant to be used though. * Exactly. Tiana, Belle, and Cinderella, etc., when they were treated horribly, didn't let circumstance or cruelty overcome them and turn them into something just as bad. Disney villains are villains precisely because they do, and it destroys them. Facilier is an especially interesting case, because he doesn't get his comeuppance in one fell swoop, falling from some high ledge when he's at the top of the world and everything is going right. The walls have been closing in on him for a long time, and he knows this. Line 331: Tiana barely has time to ''sleep''. Mom and Odie are right to be a little concerned. PatF is interesting in that no character (aside from Facilier and Lawrence)is 100% in the wrong: Tiana needs to work hard, but she's sacrificing everything else in her life. Incidentally, though, the directors were as worried about it as you are: they added Tiana's mother bringing her the Gumbo pot since the original version (her showing up and badgering Tiana about Grandkids) just made her seem like a dreamkiller. But that's the thing, she's not sacrificing everything else in her life. She's clearly got a social life, just not much of a dating ~~one--but~~one—but that doesn't mean she didn't understand how important love was. She didn't need to "dig a little deeper" as much as she needed to get some more sleep and take better care of herself, and make just a little more time for relaxing, so that she didn't die of a stress induced heart attack before the age of thirty. Although that doesn't make for a very catchy song. What? Like one of the above posters said, Tiana was hardly getting sleep. Her friend even says "Girl, all you ever do is work". She doesn't go out with her friends or engage in activities that make for stress relief (she doesn't even seem to know how to dance until Naveen insists on doing so). Tiana's father never got the restaurant but made time to be with his wife and daughter and was happy still. Tiana had it in her head that it was somehow letting her father down if his dream went unfulfilled when he obviously wouldn't have wanted her to clutter her life so much. Also, she only warmed up to Naveen after he pointed out that she needed to loosen up and helped her do so (just like how he only warmed up to her after she told him to take more responsibility and taught him how to take care of himself a little). I'm not denying that Tiana was pushing herself, working too hard, and misinterpreting her father's wishes...I just don't think she was the entirely out of control workaholic some people make her out to be. Also consider that she can't survive on the sleep we see her getting (almost none) all the time...it's possible she was pushing herself especially hard, even for her, in the days leading up to Mardi Gras, when there would be the most work to be done and money to be made. Line 364: ** Fireflies actually do have a distinct, pungent smell that becomes more noticeable when they're {{spoiler\|squashed.}} But I think it was more of a gesture that he was collecting himself, brushing the bridge of his nose and adjusting his coat, putting himself back in control of the situation. * Ummm... the U.S. has laws against having titles that aren't earned ("Doctor" is allowed, but "King" isn't as it was just inherited). Because Tiana is an American citizen, she can't technically be a Princess... [[Just Bugs Me]]. I'm guessing voodoo [[Curse Escape Clause~~\|Curse Escape Clauses~~]]s are more lenient in this regard. * The curse would accept "Princess of Mardi Gras" to work, it probably figured "wife of a prince" was fair game too. Not quite. She ''can'' have the title, it's just that it doesn't actually mean anything in America. So she can't have the title given to her by an American appointment (as in, Congress isn't allowed to declare anyone a knight, princess, whatever), but if Maldonia would recognize her as a princess, the fact that she's American doesn't change that. Line 381: Also, she IS married to a prince, whose parents are extremely wealthy. They cut him off because he was a lazy, womanizing, useless leech, but now that he's the co-owner of a popular restaurant, there's no reason why his parents would help out a bit when times got tough. * I understand that, out of all the minority races, Disney has had the most bumpy relationship with African Americans, but it still bugs me that people make such a big deal about the first black princess when we already have Jasmine, Pocahontas, and Mulan. [[But Not Too Black]]. Jasmine was middle-eastern, Pocahantas was American, and Mulan was Asian (coincidentally, all cultures that get or have gotten the shaft when it comes to... what is that stupid phrase? Reversed discrimination?), but Tiana was the first female, human, Disney main character with direct ancestral connections to Africa recognizable by [[Eagle Land\|modern Americans]]. What ''I'' don't get is why people keep bringing up examples from the movie [[~~Big~~Non ~~Lipped~~Sequitur ~~Alligator Moment~~Scene\|out of nowhere]] or [[Square Peg, Round Trope\|where it simply doesn't fit]] (at least the latter have grounds for removal), since it's difficult to tell if it's happening because it's recent (my guess), because it's [[Hype Backlash\|hyped]] for being racially inclusive and set in a recognizable era of [[Real Life]] (makes the "recent" thing happen more), or if it's just because it really is that awesome/cute/cool/well-written ([[Crowning Music of Awesome]] doesn't count towards anything but the soundtrack). Actually, a lot of people were angry ''because'' of that. "How come it took sooo long to make a black princess when you have all the other ones?" like they were deliberately putting it off. But I actually think that might be a good thing. The animators are still a bunch of privileged white men, but at least now it's a lot easier to call them out on it. If they had made a black princess in the early nineties they probably would have tried to make her all "hip" and "jivey". There's also no way they would have done an interracial romance with a black girl at the time. Esmeralda and Pocahontas were accepted because the idea of white men hooking up with exotic gypsies and Indian Princesses has been romanticized for a ''long'' time. Also, note that with the exception of Mulan, the earlier heroines of color (Jasmine, Pocahontas, Esmeralda, Kida) have that exotic pornstar look. I rather like that Tiana is a classy dream girl a la Belle instead of an exoticized fantasy. * Uh...I find this complaint a bit of a double standard. First of all, Are you seriously trying to tell me that Ariel isn't drawn with the "exotic pornstar" look in the same way they are? Same huge boobs, same long, flowy hair, same skimpy outfit. Esmerelda looks more conservative than her! So...its okay to draw a white character like that, but a non-white character is racist? Kida IS quite skimpy and IS drawn to be the exotic island princess, but that has been done by pretty much everyone (think of the princess from Avatar) So...Its only racist if its Disney? (That happens so often, it should be a trope). And I think the reason Pocahontas and Esmerelda's relationships happened not because that kind of relationship is "already accepted," but because they are in a position in time and a place where that was actually possible. Jasmine was in the middle of medieval Arabia, Mulan in the middle of ancient China. Not a whole lot of available white guys for the taking. Why do you think PaTF had to be moved to the 1920's? Line 403: There's a bit of [[Fridge Brilliance]] there. You know that scene where Tiana was working in the cafe and finally gets enough money for her restaurant? Doctor Facilier happened to be there, stalking Big Daddy. Another idea: Remember how much Facilier ''really'' doesn't want to ask his 'friends' for help? It's quite possible that the powder, whatever it was, was only enough for a single use, and otherwise he relies on old-fashioned searching, since, well...if you had the choice between putting in a little more work or owing more souls, what would you pick? Look at his expression when he's throwing it down: the man is desperate and terrified. * I don't think the powder is one ~~use--we~~use—we see him using it at the beginning of the movie as well, to give a random guy on the street more ~~hair--but~~hair—but I do think it's entirely reasonable to assume that Facilier is aware of people in the city in much the same way as Mama Odie is. Sort of a voodoo perk, knowledge of the people in your own stomping ground. Even if it's only knowledge of ''significant'' people in the city, Tiana's father seems to be well-liked in their community, based on the back porch cook-out framed around their family. Naveen is from outside the city, so Facilier doesn't have a clue of such background knowledge about him. Also, it's clear Tiana knows about ~~Facilier--even~~Facilier—even discounting the line, "You been messin' with the Shadow Man?!" she names him on sight when they come face to face towards the end. Maybe they've had a run-in before. * One of the morals appears to be that your dreams mean nothing unless you're sharing them with someone. Fine, okay, but apparently in order to share your dream with someone, you ''must'' be married. The implication that you're never truly complete without marriage bugs me lots. It's more about how you have make room in your life for love. Line 415: [[The Genie Knows Jack Nicholson]]? *** I think it's more like a case of [[Anachronism Stew]] than anything. * It annoys me that people are [[Displeased Fanbase\|displeased]] with the movie/Disney because it took Disney so long to have a black princess,(or something else surrounding Tiana's ethnicity...) or because 1920's New Orleans wasn't depicted properly, but if they really made it where it was more realistic, the cries of "racist" would be even louder. It was a very good movie in its own right, and is (in my opinion) as amazing as the original [[Disney Animated Canon]] films were. It's as good as [[Aladdin (Disney film)\|Aladdin]], my favorite Disney film. Seconded by this troper. It's a Disney movie people, not a history lesson! This troper is actually ''glad'' that Disney didn't try to heavily lean on a race issue moral. The real life situations at the time would have been far too sticky and complicated to properly portray and if Disney had tried, they only would have made people even angrier (like with ''Pocahontas''). They still touched on the racism enough to show it was there, not enough to completely confuse kids, and were pretty good with the issue. Line 422: * Tiana and Naveen kind of give up on reversing the transformation pretty easily - sure, Charlotte's not a "princess" anymore, but if that sort of thing qualifies, there should be tons of other opportunities. They're still talking frogs. Why not have Naveen's dad call up King George and try to explain the situation? (which would also, incidentally, be a totally hilarious conversation) Well it wasn't actually said that they ''did'' give up. They just said that they were going to be together and get married. It's possible that after marrying and getting things settled, they would have gone on to try to find a new princess to solve the issue. Alternatively: They were going to spend a year with some ~~excuse--explain~~excuse—explain stuff to the mom post-marriage, say they were going on a long honeymoon, etc.--and just wait a year. This was Big Daddy's fourth year in a row as Mardi Gras king, there was no reason to believe Charlotte wouldn't be princess again next year. Or maybe Tiana figured it out and said she wanted to get married, and Naveen went "what the heck," deciding to look later. * This is just a minor nitpick, but even if Tiana and Naveen hadn't transformed back into humans by marrying, the chance of them having to spend the rest of their lives as frogs is pretty low, because Big Daddy implies earlier in the film that he gets voted King of Mardi Gras every year (well, the last five years anyway). The worst case scenario would have been them being frogs for one year until Charlotte became a princess again, which is a pretty big bummer in its own right, but not as bad as being frogs for the rest of their lives. ** Well, if the whole "Princess of Mardi Gras" thing counts, then surely there are plenty of metaphorical princesses that would work. Plus, if Naveen has any aunts or female cousins, they would also be princesses as well. Line 506: * Why DID kissing a princess reverse the transformation? I mean, the only reason that occurred to Naveen at all was because Tiana squashed him with the Frog Prince book, a story that he was very familiar with. Given that he was cursed by a witch doctor, with voodoo being something that is regional enough to presumably not be around in Maldonia, where he heard the Frog Prince every night, that story would really have nothing to do with voodoo. So was it just a coincidence that Mama Odie revealed that kissing a princess would reverse it? {{worksubpagefooter}} ~~{{reflist}}~~ {{DEFAULTSORT:Princess and the Frog, The}} [[Category:Disney Animated Canon/Headscratchers]] ~~[[Category:The Princess And The Frog]]~~ ~~[[Category:Headscratchers]]~~ __NOTOC__