Discworld/Thief of Time/WMG
- 1 Lord Vetinari is the son of Susan Sto Helit and Lobsang Ludd
- 2 Lu-Tze is actually Simon the Digger.
- 3 Two versions of Lu-Tze existed simultaneously at the end of the Century of the Fruitbat: a little bald wrinkly smiling man, and a naive youth in search of perplexity.
- 4 Clodpool the Apprentice is the Abbot
- 5 Lu-Tse is a Time Lord
His ancestry is never really discussed in the books, beyond his having an Aunt (and since Susan is part of the Sto Plains nobility, she probably has lots of distant relatives that could take care of him.) The Assassin's Guild is known as being a common place to leave infants (much like Lobsang and Jeremy were at their respective Guilds.) And really, he has a lot of characteristics from both of them- Susan's massive unflappability, ability to bend people to their will just by glaring at them, and ability to move through solid objects, which he disguises with some fake secret doors. From his father he gains the ability to predict future events, his above average reflexes, and his boundless-seeming knowledge and super-fast problem solving skills. Also, being a cross between the two of them probably explains his ability to go without sleep, exist on very little food, and never need to care out basic hygienic tasks (while anyone's watching anyway.)
- Except that is already an old man long before Susan and Lobsang ever even meet.
- Between how messed up history is due to Monkish meddling and the fact that Lobsang is Time now, I don't think order of events matters much.
- Well, Nanny Ogg said she had delivered Lobsang about 2 weeks prior to when the story was set, and he was somewhere in the 14-16ish age range, so Vetinari could have been sent back in time as well.
- ...I love you. This is now canon in my mind.
- Slight problem with this: her nobility goes back only one generation: Mort and Ysabel were created the Duke and Duchess Sto Helit. Ysabel was Death's adopted daughter, and as such was out of the world for at least 30 years. We never find out about her biological family except that she was orphaned at a very early age. It's possible, then, that Susan has a number of maternal great-aunts and great-uncles (and cousins from said lines of descent), but unlikely that she'd have any idea who they were. On the paternal side, the only confirmed relatives are Lezek, her paternal grandfather (who she remembered, but also remembered dying years before Soul Music), and Hamish (Susan's paternal great-uncle), who gets at best a two-page mention and is promptly forgotten about. I really can't see how she'd arrange fosterage on that side without messing up her own timeline.
- Perhaps future!Susan tracked down Ysabel's sister or aunt, and convinced her to take care of young Havelock until he was old enough to live outside of time himself or choose to stay on the Disc, or until he became inextricable from present history?
- Lady Merosole in Night Watch compares young Havelock to his father, in terms that imply he is deceased by then, and was well known to her.
- But could any child of Susan's and grandchild of Ysabell's really be content, living a life without chocolate? And wouldn't a grandchild of Wen the Eternally Surprised look a bit more Hublandish?
- Lobsang went unremarked. Hublanders don't really seem to look much different from Morporkians, aside from cultural differences in outfits and suchlike.
- Although somebody did call Lu-Tze a "little yellow bastard", or words to that effect, in Small Gods.
- Concerning the chocolate issue, Vetinari would also technically be the son of Jeremy Clockson. That should certainly be enough to cancel it out. Incidentally, the reason Death never contacts his great-grandson is that Vetinari is a dog lover.
- Almost "right". But think of who else could be in the frame as the female incarnation of Time. One who has learnt to walk up and down the timelines at will. One who knew, because she had been born in Lancre and apprenticed to Granny Weatherwax, exactly where to go to find the world's best midwife, Nanny Ogg. One who, when she re-appears in the series in "I shall wear Midnight", explains that she has a son she must take care of...
Lu-Tze is actually Simon the Digger.[edit | hide]
Think about it. Ancient badass doing overlooked menial labor. Spiral Power can keep you around for quite a while(as Lordgenome proved.) At some point he decided to see how the universe he saved would turn out. So, he found a new home on an odd little planet, replaced his drill with a broom, and found a menial job in a place where living several centuries wouldn't raise an eyebrow and went about his business.
Two versions of Lu-Tze existed simultaneously at the end of the Century of the Fruitbat: a little bald wrinkly smiling man, and a naive youth in search of perplexity.[edit | hide]
Lu-Tze learned his Way from Mrs. Marietta Cosmopolite, dressmaker, whom we first met in Moving Pictures. She hadn't been born
yesterday hundreds of years ago, and as he was only a novice and untrained in time manipulation, Lu-Tze couldn't have jumped ahead to her time. Furthermore, it was a flyer from the Ankh-Morpork Guild of Merchants that drew him to the city, and we know that this Guild only came into existence due to events in The Colour Of Magic. This suggests that Lu-Tze was born quite recently, and his discovery of the Way of Mrs. Cosmopilite happened during the time period covered by the novels. Once the History Monks saw what his new Way made him capable of, they moved him backward in time by several centuries, probably because none of the present monastery staff had a clue how to teach or challenge him. Aside from numerous side-treks into past and future eras of the world, he's lived out the centuries there ever since, eventually catching up with (and possibly even recruiting!) his youthful self.
If we don't actually see a young Lu-Tze in the series, of course, that doesn't invalidate this WMG. It only goes to show that the Closing of the Flower worked so very well, in his case, it even erased his youthful self's presence from all the other Discworld novels.
- This makes perfect sense.
Wen himself went off to live in Time's glass palace, but we never get told what happened to his foolish apprentice. Presumably, Wen succeeded in teaching him about the nature of time ("It is fortuitous that you are my apprentice at this time, because if I can teach you, Clodpool, I can teach anyone"), and he went on to teach the next group of seekers after wisdom, becoming the first abbot of the order. Which, since the abbot is reincarnated, makes him the current abbot.