Homestuck/WMG/Sprites: Difference between revisions

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**** Fair enough; but just as a final note as I'm genuinely a little frustrated by your cyclical logic, continuing to argue points I thought I already demonstrated evidence against. Doc's comments ''never'' were shown to apply specifically to 1:1 copies of himself, and there's plenty of overlap with Doc and the other First Guardians, far more similarities in fact than differences, and at any rate, trusting the words of Doc at face value is a little too trusting as well, given the Green Sun plot. You're welcome to believe what you like, but this is one of those ideas that to me at least seems to be one of the Untwists that ''Homestuck'' occasionally has. Much like the dreambubble afterlife discussion above, there's plenty of evidence for both sides and neither side has concretely been proven to be conclusively correct.

** I've tried my best to offer counter arguments, but you haven't listened. That's why I keep going over them. Your "overwhelming evidence" boils down to a few shaky arguments. 1) They share the same power source and FG genetic code, and this should imply the same motives, ignoring any other contributing factors to their creation [http://dl.dropbox.com/u/40585720/Combined_Formspring_Web_Aug-28-2011.htm#mspadventures167594031059066970 (e.g. Lil' Cal)] or the behavior of other intelligent characters that draw from the same power source (e.g. Jade). 2) Acting to preserve the Alpha timeline when the Alpha timeline results in Lord English's summoning inherently means that this was your primary goal all along. We should assume there is no other valid reason to wish to protect the kids or preserve the session beyond bringing Lord English eventually into the universe it creates. 3) Doc Scratch is the model we should use for all guardians since he's the only one who explains his motives. Since his death was necessary to summon Lord English, the death of a First Guardian (which he is) is necessary, thus the death of any First Guardian will suffice. Any references to other iterations of himself must necessarily refer to any other First Guardian and not to a subset of First Guardians. 4) But, if something Doc Scratch says might contradict this theory, remember that he is a scoundrel and take his words with a grain of salt, even though he's never outright lied, and there's little reason to do so to the audience. (e.g. Dismiss outright what he said about Lord English's calling card in the A1 session and any implications it has about other sessions.)

*** Rebumped chat back for coherency. Point by point. 1) While Cal himself is a "jUjU", there is no indication that English cannot play out a similar role with another FG. Scratch was a puppet used as a weapon, so GCat and Bec might just be animals obeying their masters. Just because the motif exists with Scratch and English doesn't mean that's what must ''always'' exist. 2) While this argument is valid for Bec, GCat has no strong emotional connection demonstrated to any of the Kids. Moreover, Bec and GCat aren't sentient, so they can't really have motives! Animals can however obey orders, and even Bec's prototyping of himself to save Jade was in and of itself preserving the Alpha Timeline, meaning these things aren't mutually exclusive. 3) This depends on the assumption that Lord English varies his appearance based on Universes, and there is not simply one Lord English. Given that Andrew referred to English being the Troll's conception of death and an agent of their mythology, this assumption does carry some weight, as Humanity's conception of death is markedly different from the Troll's, and that could presumably extend to others. Look at for instance Anubis, a god of the dead whom a LE with Bec's ears would heavily resemble. 4) I never meant to undergo [[Confirmation Bias]], though you apparently think I did. I merely am cautious at taking Doc's words at face value, especially words mentioned all of ''once'' in a sequence that was heavily symbolic (the calling card). Moreover part of our diagreement is about Doc's reference to his "counterparts" which you take to mean "Doc Scratch" and I take to mean "First Guardian". Neither of these are incorrect, and from the evidence in front of us at this time, neither can be proven or disproven. Closing: My argument boils down to this. We know Doc Scratch is connected with LE, and that in other sessions, First Guardians are created by agents of Derse, which is very loosely allied with Lord English (Feferi's Lusus, Snowman, Destruction etc). First Guardians prepare a planet for Sburb, ''[[And Then What]]''. Once a session has entered, a First Guardian's purpose is complete. We have no idea what happens after that stage, though in Doc's case he became Lord English. It's not that much of a stretch to believe that is the natural fate of any First Guardian, not necessarily that it ''must'' be an alternate of Doc Scratch. Moreover, in every case of FG that we have seen thus far, they are based on a tool or an animal, something that naturally can be subservient to a master.

*** Rebumped chat back for coherency. Point by point. 1) While Cal himself is a "jUjU", there is no indication that English cannot play out a similar role with another FG. Scratch was a puppet used as a weapon, so GCat and Bec might just be animals obeying their masters. Just because the motif exists with Scratch and English doesn't mean that's what must ''always'' exist. 2) While this argument is valid for Bec, GCat has no strong emotional connection demonstrated to any of the Kids. Moreover, Bec and GCat aren't sentient, so they can't really have motives! Animals can however obey orders, and even Bec's prototyping of himself to save Jade was in and of itself preserving the Alpha Timeline, meaning these things aren't mutually exclusive. 3) This depends on the assumption that Lord English varies his appearance based on Universes, and there is not simply one Lord English. Given that Andrew referred to English being the Troll's conception of death and an agent of their mythology, this assumption does carry some weight, as Humanity's conception of death is markedly different from the Troll's, and that could presumably extend to others. Look at for instance Anubis, a god of the dead whom a LE with Bec's ears would heavily resemble. 4) I never meant to undergo [[Confirmation Bias]], though you apparently think I did. I merely am cautious at taking Doc's words at face value, especially words mentioned all of ''once'' in a sequence that was heavily symbolic (the calling card). Moreover part of our diagreement is about Doc's reference to his "counterparts" which you take to mean "Doc Scratch" and I take to mean "First Guardian". Neither of these are incorrect, and from the evidence in front of us at this time, neither can be proven or disproven. Closing: My argument boils down to this. We know Doc Scratch is connected with LE, and that in other sessions, First Guardians are created by agents of Derse, which is very loosely allied with Lord English (Feferi's Lusus, Snowman, Destruction etc). First Guardians prepare a planet for Sburb, ''[[And Then What?]]''. Once a session has entered, a First Guardian's purpose is complete. We have no idea what happens after that stage, though in Doc's case he became Lord English. It's not that much of a stretch to believe that is the natural fate of any First Guardian, not necessarily that it ''must'' be an alternate of Doc Scratch. Moreover, in every case of FG that we have seen thus far, they are based on a tool or an animal, something that naturally can be subservient to a master.

== Nanna's maiden name was [[Hello Insert Name Here|????]] [[Mark Twain|Clemens]]. ==

== Nanna's maiden name was [[Hello, Insert Name Here|????]] [[Mark Twain|Clemens]]. ==

In the Alpha universe, Jane's (and likely but not necessarily Jade's) surname is Crocker, but the Batterwitch has her hooks deeper into things over there than she ever did in the Beta universe. It's quite possible that Nanna was originally given her adoptive father's name,and her active rebellion and love of japery may have led her to keep (or, later in life, re-acquire) her late adoptive father's surname. On a vaguely related note from the vantage point of another universe, Jane Twain [[Unfortunate Names|would have been a horrible name to have the option of choosing over Jane Crocker]].

* It would have to be Sassacre, as that seems to genuinely be his name, rather than Sam Clemens.

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== Lord English was the one who gave The Condesce an offer she couldn't refuse. ==

So the Condecse fought the Handmaid/Demoness and won. However, since her opponent was of Rust Blood she basicly completely disreguarded it. Thus, Lord English personally appeared (Or was already there) and gave her the same offer. They fought. [[Curb Stomp Battle|The Condecse lost.]] [[No Kill Like Overkill|Severely.]] And so Lord English gave her a final offer. Serve underneath him and be [[You Have Outlived Your Usefulness|granted death at the end of her service,]] or deny the offer and suffer a [[Fate Worse Than Death]]. Seeing as she's basicly scared [[Precision F Strike|shitless]] of Lord English by this point, she took the offer willingly.

So the Condecse fought the Handmaid/Demoness and won. However, since her opponent was of Rust Blood she basicly completely disreguarded it. Thus, Lord English personally appeared (Or was already there) and gave her the same offer. They fought. [[Curb Stomp Battle|The Condecse lost.]] [[No Kill Like Overkill|Severely.]] And so Lord English gave her a final offer. Serve underneath him and be [[You Have Outlived Your Usefulness|granted death at the end of her service,]] or deny the offer and suffer a [[Fate Worse Than Death]]. Seeing as she's basicly scared [[Precision F-Strike|shitless]] of Lord English by this point, she took the offer willingly.

== Other Characters ==

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The game is set up to serve this function, win or lose; the only difference is how much the player's native planet is sacrificed. However, ''breaking'' the game has put the existence of life in danger.

* The source of all creation and the ultimate power trying to create new universes and thus life, yes.

** Source of Bilious Slick, or Bilious Slick is the source of Skaia? Given the history of paradoxical generation in this story, the answer is probably "[[~~Mathematicians~~ Answer|Yes]]"

** Source of Bilious Slick, or Bilious Slick is the source of Skaia? Given the history of paradoxical generation in this story, the answer is probably "[[Mathematician's Answer|Yes]]"

== FedoraFreak is actually... ==

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[[Category:Homestuck Sprites]]

[[Category:WMG]]

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