Linear Warriors, Quadratic Wizards: Difference between revisions

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== Tabletop Games ==

* Some [[Tabletop Games|Tabletop RPGs]] suffer from this.

* ''[[~~Dungeons and Dragons|~~Dungeons & Dragons]]'' The actual point at which wizards overtake fighters is somewhere between level one (when they get "Color Spray") and level five (when they get "[[Fireballs]]" and "Haste"), depending on who you ask. Either way, at low levels attack spells are both too weak and too few, the main advantages are in buff, incapacitation, area denial or utility magic. It also depends on the type of encounter—one strong opponent or many weaklings.

* ''[[Dungeons & Dragons]]'' The actual point at which wizards overtake fighters is somewhere between level one (when they get "Color Spray") and level five (when they get "[[Fireballs]]" and "Haste"), depending on who you ask. Either way, at low levels attack spells are both too weak and too few, the main advantages are in buff, incapacitation, area denial or utility magic. It also depends on the type of encounter—one strong opponent or many weaklings.

** Another problem is that as primary casters gain levels, they gain access to spells that allow them to do pretty much anything. A Wizard, Cleric, or Druid with access to the huge list of spells published for them can fill almost any party role—often better than the classes designed for that role—while a fighter gains variations and slight improvements on "hit enemy with stick". So it's even more than "square", since casters have growing effects themselves (usually in more than one variable, too), number of times these can be used ''and'' flexibility.

** Originally the intent of ''D&D'' was that the common man was a Fighter and he would be more powerful at low level, but someone who performed magic (a Cleric or Magic-User) would make sacrifices at low level to become more powerful at high level. But this was further balanced by Fighters getting the best followers at high level (and at the time, henchmen were quite valuable even if they were low-level) and because Fighters were the only ones who could use magic swords. The majority (60%+) of magic swords were intelligent and carried special spell-like powers. Since a Fighter was the only one who could wield one, those found in treasure would usually end up in his hands. This limited spell-like ability made up for the Fighter having no spells of his own.

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* ''[[Hackmaster]]''' (based around the older second edition ''AD&D'' rules) slightly subverts this by pointing out that looking at the abilities of high level characters and comparing them to those offered in other classes was rather pointless, as there was a pretty good chance you'd be stone dead long before you got that far.

* In the ''[[Legend of the Five Rings]]'', this trope falls in slightly murky waters. Wizards (shugenja) are most decidedly quadratic—a rank 2 shugenja is immensely better than a rank 1 shugenja, and a rank 1 bushi is ''extremely'' likely to be able to carve either one of them into cat food. Among bushi (warriors), however, rank doesn't mean a whole lot—a higher rank means you have higher skills and stats, since rank is derived from skills and stats, but the only thing a bushi gets from rank-up is a new School Technique, which, while nice, is generally not as big of a power step as it is for shugenja. Why does the trope still apply? Because that same shugenja who didn't stand much of a chance before at rank 1 can now have elemental spirits char you into a skeleton by asking nicely, that's why.

* The original ''[[~~Rune Quest~~]]'' subverted this trope through healthy realism. Magic in this game was very weak, and you had to spend magic points to cast spells, and characters only had a very small number of magic points. Thus, sword-swingers with the ability to use physical attacks indefinitely could have had a huge advantage over spell-casters. However, if you think about it, ''nobody'' can swing a sword all day long: the more you use your muscles, the more tired you get, and sooner or later your arms feel so numb and heavy you can't even lift your weapon anymore. This is why, in the name of realism, the ''[[~~Rune Quest~~]]'' designers made it so that swinging your sword required that you spend stamina points, of which you had only a small number too. A warrior with no stamina points left, like a wizard out of mana, became exhausted and unable to fight.

* The original ''[[RuneQuest]]'' subverted this trope through healthy realism. Magic in this game was very weak, and you had to spend magic points to cast spells, and characters only had a very small number of magic points. Thus, sword-swingers with the ability to use physical attacks indefinitely could have had a huge advantage over spell-casters. However, if you think about it, ''nobody'' can swing a sword all day long: the more you use your muscles, the more tired you get, and sooner or later your arms feel so numb and heavy you can't even lift your weapon anymore. This is why, in the name of realism, the ''[[RuneQuest]]'' designers made it so that swinging your sword required that you spend stamina points, of which you had only a small number too. A warrior with no stamina points left, like a wizard out of mana, became exhausted and unable to fight.

** Also, just about ''everyone'' in a typical RQ game will have some minor magic spells. Dedicated priests or Rune Lords (servants of their gods, like ''D&D'''s Paladins) have access to significantly more powerful divine magic, without the usual limitations most people have on them. To balance it, they have to spend most of their time on religious duties, severely cutting into their adventuring time.

* ''[[Warhammer Fantasy]]'' plays this straight with a few armies. Lizardmen are a particularly drastic example. Hero Level Sarus are hard fighting warriors and while Skink Priests are solid casters, their lack of access to different Lores (and the Lore of Heaven isn't the greatest lore in the world) and the fact that they're made of tissue paper means that they're often not worth it (at least without an Engine of the Gods). On the other hand, Lord Level Sarus are merely really good fighters whereas Slaan's access to all the lores, the different abilities you can give them and the sheer power of their casting abilities means they can often devastate entire units all on their own.

** ''[[Warhammer ~~40000~~]]'' averts this however, with Psykers often having limited and support abilities, whereas combat leaders can often be much more powerful.

** ''[[Warhammer 40,000]]'' averts this however, with Psykers often having limited and support abilities, whereas combat leaders can often be much more powerful.

* ''[[Ars Magica]]'' subverts this trope somewhat. On the one hand, magical progression is definitely quadratic and warrior progression is definitely linear—but firstly player character magi normally start play after a 15 year apprenticeship so they're already way ahead of even the most hardened warrior rather than starting weaker and having to catch up; and secondly each player normally controls two characters, playing both a mage and a [[Muggle]], so there is no direct competition between the power levels of different types of characters.

* In the [[Old World of Darkness]], [[Werewolf: The Apocalypse|werewolves]] and other shifters were the single most fearsome sort of player character at lower levels. At the upper end, not so much. Their high-level abilities are certainly impressive, but other creatures surpass them, such as [[Mage: The Ascension|mages]]. At Arete 1, mages have nothing more than a [[Sixth Sense]], but at Arete 10 they can basically rewrite reality on a whim.

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A Sidereal martial arts master can split a soul and jump to [[Heaven]]. }}

* ''[[The Dresden Files (game)|The Dresden Files]]'' RPG runs into this with mortal characters because of how the attack and damage values are laid out for spells. A "starter" wizard will likely be able to throw around 3 and 4 shift attacks, rolling from 3 or 4, which gives them about as much kick as a cop with a shotgun might have. But while most character types will increase their effectiveness primarily through increasing skill rolls (same shotgun, better at aiming it), wizards increase both damage ''and'' skill rolls—so not only is he throwing around a more intense fireball, he's more likely to hit you with it. Within a few milestones, while that cop is shooting his Weapon:3 shotgun rolling from 5,<ref>Meaning that an average roll against someone rolling a 3 on defense works out to a 5 shift hit, enough to kill a normal human, but barely</ref> a wizard using his favored element might be firing off a Weapon:7 attack, also rolling from 7.<ref>Meaning an average roll against a 3 on defense works out to an '''''11''''' shift hit</ref> The main thing keeping them in check is that a blown spell roll does damage to the wizard, and the Laws of Magic, which state that a wizard isn't allowed to kill a mortal with magic (which doesn't stop bad guys, obviously). That said, there ''are'' abilities outside of spellcasting that can make a character hit just as hard, and be tougher to kill, but they're still magical abilities.

* While it was played straight in older editions it is now mostly averted in the fourth edition of ''[[The Dark Eye]]'', while wizards can still be incredibly powerful, a single hit by an arrow or a powerful swing of a melee weapon will cause them to lie on the floor moaning in pain or at the very least make casting spells quite difficult. And while any spellcaster can learn to use weapons, they can rarely attain the same mastery as warriors since they lack the physical attributes to raise their combat talents as high as the warriors. The fact that the most powerful pure damage spell is partly [[Cast ~~From~~ Hit Points]] stops the wizards from becoming war gods.

* While it was played straight in older editions it is now mostly averted in the fourth edition of ''[[The Dark Eye]]'', while wizards can still be incredibly powerful, a single hit by an arrow or a powerful swing of a melee weapon will cause them to lie on the floor moaning in pain or at the very least make casting spells quite difficult. And while any spellcaster can learn to use weapons, they can rarely attain the same mastery as warriors since they lack the physical attributes to raise their combat talents as high as the warriors. The fact that the most powerful pure damage spell is partly [[Cast from Hit Points]] stops the wizards from becoming war gods.

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* The text-based RPG ''[http://www.skotos.net/games/grendel/ Grendel's Revenge]'' had a rather interesting relationship with this trope through it's history. At first it was inverted, magical monsters were fairly balanced with young fighter monster for the first 50 or so levels, but the fighter monsters could get a host of passive, always on [[Status Buff]]s as well as timed ones from Leader monsters, whereas magical monsters had very few ways to get a status buffs at all. This got progressively worse since fighter monsters could wear better armor, get skills to boost their weapon skills (and the weapons gotten improves) while magical monsters could only wear a small selection of non-armor magical gear. At the 200+ level mark, fights between equal level solo magical and fighter monsters would be very hard for the magical monster's player since their attacks could not penetrate and they had no defense. Only by using sneak tactics like stunning, teleporting enemies into traps (which Builder clan mates had to prepare for the magical monster) and other means could they hold their own...all of which were not that effective against the fighter player to begin with, which ''still'' had very good resistances to these tactics. To make it worse, the maximum number of skills/powers/abilities was capped at '''7''', so magical characters could not get nearly as diverse a power set compared to fighters, and only [[Level Grinding]] to 700 could get you that far. Magical player outcries got so loud and exceedingly ''deconstructive'' (the game forum was for many months ''full'' of dissertations and long arguments on exactly how and why magical monsters had the raw end of the class system) that the designers made a series of wide ranging nerfs, buffs, and rebalances to fix the issue...which sometimes snowballed into creating other imbalances. It's worked, mostly, but the current state of game balance is unknown at this time.

** And ''don't'' get us started on game balance issues involving the non-combat classes!

* Played straight and later [[Inverted Trope|inverted]] in ''[[~~Runescape~~]]''. Melee combat is the cheapest to use (literally requiring no equipment at first), while magic is extremely expensive. Once you've leveled up magic, however, it starts hitting harder and more consistently than melee. Past about level 50, however, melee takes over again as doing the most damage thanks to better weapons. The best magic spells (which allow freezing and leeching hitpoints) allow really good mages to still have the upper hand over warriors, but it takes a lot of skill. Of course, this is in [[PvP]] combat. When fighting NPCs, melee is the best 90% of the time due to the lower cost (cost is much less of a consideration in [[PvP]] as opposed to PvM) and faster speed, though magic does have its niches. Ranged combat falls somewhere in the middle, able to dish out a large amount of power without costing quite as much as magic. Its progression is much more linear, however.

* Played straight and later [[Inverted Trope|inverted]] in ''[[RuneScape]]''. Melee combat is the cheapest to use (literally requiring no equipment at first), while magic is extremely expensive. Once you've leveled up magic, however, it starts hitting harder and more consistently than melee. Past about level 50, however, melee takes over again as doing the most damage thanks to better weapons. The best magic spells (which allow freezing and leeching hitpoints) allow really good mages to still have the upper hand over warriors, but it takes a lot of skill. Of course, this is in [[PvP]] combat. When fighting NPCs, melee is the best 90% of the time due to the lower cost (cost is much less of a consideration in [[PvP]] as opposed to PvM) and faster speed, though magic does have its niches. Ranged combat falls somewhere in the middle, able to dish out a large amount of power without costing quite as much as magic. Its progression is much more linear, however.

* Inverted in the early years of ''[[World of Warcraft]]'', where spellcasters scaled linearly and physical attackers scaled quadratically. Shiny new raid dungeon weapons massively boosted physical damage, while a new staff gave casters...more mana. Stat increases from equipment also followed this pattern; strength boosted physical damage, but intellect only increased caster longevity. Meanwhile of course, the physical attackers used the infinitely replenishing resources of energy and rage. The situation was eventually remedied by greatly increasing the amount of "spell damage" stat found on caster gear, and altering the allotment of item budget "stat points" for caster weapons to favor magic damage over useless weapon damage.

** Rage as the resource system made this happen, pre-Cata - the more damage you deal, the more rage you have, which then lets you do damage for real. Therefore, since the beginnings of [[WoW]], warriors sucked at low gear levels, getting rage starved and thus not able to "press any buttons", and then about halfway into an expansion their "white" (non-rage-consuming) damage exceeded a certain point and they suddenly get 100% rage every time they swing a weapon. A rather simple fix for this happened, however; rage intake now occurs on hits at a flat rate, based on unmodified weapon speed. Taking damage (which is usually suicidal unless you're tanking) and a couple of abilities also grant Rage, for those dry spots.

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*** And then inverted once you get access to the endgame and postgame, where enemies who are highly resistant to magic and obscenely overpowered swords (especially) and spears start popping up everywhere. Your mage hitting everyone for 200,000 damage starts looking weak when a single sword user (or the secret characters) can do upwards of 1 million damage between their attack string and their Purify Weird Soul attack. Sure they only hit one character, but most things in the Seraphic gate can take a volley of Great Magic and then stomp you in return. Very few things, on the other hand, can take a full combo from most sword users, especially Lenneth, with the Dainslef or Angel Slayer equipped...

** Averted, though, in ''[[Valkyrie Profile: Silmeria]]'', where mages are [[nerf]]ed considerably compared to the other installments. There are still occasions, however, where the right spell will make certain enemies much easier.

** Finally, ''[[Valkyrie Profile Covenant of the Plume]]'' brings it back with a vengeance: The mages are alright at first, but are mainly best for building up the charge meter...until that is you get a staff that will push a mage's spell power into the quadruple digits, and gives Great Magic. Immediate game-breaker when you consider your physical attack power unbuffed may be around 5-700 by the end of the game.

** Finally, ''[[Valkyrie Profile: Covenant of the Plume]]'' brings it back with a vengeance: The mages are alright at first, but are mainly best for building up the charge meter...until that is you get a staff that will push a mage's spell power into the quadruple digits, and gives Great Magic. Immediate game-breaker when you consider your physical attack power unbuffed may be around 5-700 by the end of the game.

* In most ''[[Shin Megami Tensei]]'' games, magic attacks almost always outweigh melee attacks by the endgame. The [[Raidou Kuzunoha vs. the Soulless Army|Devil]] [[Raidou Kuzunoha VS King Abaddon|Summoner]] games, however, do a decent job of averting this - Raidou's sword will always be one of your best friends.

** The ''[[Persona]]'' games vary. While the guns can be very powerful in the first Persona game and other weapons can sometimes be useful, the magic attacks often outclass them, depending on the user and their compatibility with their Persona. ''[[Persona 2]]'' embodies this trope, especially with how much team attacks were rewarded in both games. ''[[Persona 3]]'', however, can actually wind up with physical attacks being ''more'' powerful than special attacks with enough work. ''[[Persona 4]]'', meanwhile...players often don't even buy any weapon upgrades to their characters to save money, and what would be the point of telling them to attack? Just use your Persona to buff your characters and do special attacks. It's better.

*** And even when doing physical attacks in ''Persona 4'', it's better to use physical-based Skills; the Attack command is nearly useless. Even the [[Cast ~~From~~ Hit Points|HP cost]] doesn't matter much; as long as you have someone healing HP, your physical hitters will be fine.

*** And even when doing physical attacks in ''Persona 4'', it's better to use physical-based Skills; the Attack command is nearly useless. Even the [[Cast from Hit Points|HP cost]] doesn't matter much; as long as you have someone healing HP, your physical hitters will be fine.

** Completely subverted in Nocturne though, as there, magic attacks actually get weaker the higher your level is, whilst physical attacks get stronger with level.

*** And nevermind the fact that you can only reliably damage the [[True Final Boss]] with physical attacks.

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** This is also zig-zagged with a couple cases. Veigar isn't very strong early and mid-game...but once he gets his AP up and gets a lot of good items, he's unstoppable to compensate for a weak early game dependent on farming. LeBlanc meanwhile can take people out before they can even blink in the early-mid game; but once people get more health, she starts to lag behind a bit. Basically; if you have Veigar, you're going to want the match to last longer and if you have LeBlanc, you want push them so hard they surrender. Another example of a late-game mage is Malzahar, who goes from being a good lane pusher to being someone capable of killing any other character in a 1 v 1 fight in an incredibly short period of time. If Malzahar wins the middle lane team fights can rapidly become extremely lopsided thanks to his power curve and the area of effect, damage over time nature of his spells.

* In ''[[Fable]] II'', magic attacks start off as pathetically weak, doing virtually no damage and merely knocking foes back a bit, if even that. Guns and melee weapons are much more powerful at this point, melee being just a bit stronger. By the time you learn level 5 spells though, you can nuke huge crowds of enemies with a single spell, while using physical attacks take far longer. Ranged combat ends up being the linear line in the equation, being potent but not overpowered all through the game (unless you happen to grab the [[Game Breaker|Red Dragon]]).

* Being based on ''[[~~Dungeons and Dragons|~~Dungeons & Dragons]]'' 3.0, ''[[Neverwinter Nights]]'' featured a lot of this, and the lack of a full party and the focus on combat made it incredibly apparent. When one class' ability is to be a [[Meat Shield]] and hack at people, while the other is capable of summoning a creature, making it a better meat shield than the fighter with a few spells, (spells which work just as well on them) then blasting away for much more damage on all enemies than a fighter can hope for on a single target, the lack of balance becomes rather intrusive.

* Being based on ''[[Dungeons & Dragons]]'' 3.0, ''[[Neverwinter Nights]]'' featured a lot of this, and the lack of a full party and the focus on combat made it incredibly apparent. When one class' ability is to be a [[Meat Shield]] and hack at people, while the other is capable of summoning a creature, making it a better meat shield than the fighter with a few spells, (spells which work just as well on them) then blasting away for much more damage on all enemies than a fighter can hope for on a single target, the lack of balance becomes rather intrusive.

** Since the expansions and the introduction of Epic levels, this balance has shifted a little. With the proper equipment, a warrior is all but immune to magic, while a wizard still has precious little HP.

** In both, the NWN and [[NWN 2]] Original Campaigns the trope is even more accurate than in Pen&Paper D&D, simply because of absolutely no resting restrictions. A wizard can literally exhaust all spells in a fight, then retreat a few steps, rest for about 10 seconds, and continue with fresh spells as often as he wants, even if it means resting every minute or so. This inherent flaw was corrected in add-ons and lots of custom content via restricting resting to safe areas, adding random encounters while resting, or even restricting resting to no more frequent than every 5 minutes.

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** And during the second battle against the Linear Guild, the [[Fan Nickname|CoDzilla]] idea of overpowered clerics and druids was explored when the gnome druid was able to take on half the Order, and only the cleric Durkon was able to match him in both physical and magical combat.

* Richard in the [[Looking for Group]] comics is insanely overpowered. It's less clear with the others, but most magic users do seem to have an edge on non-magic users.

* In ''[[Sluggy Freelance]]'' both Torg and Gwynn have [[Took a Level In Badass|Taken Levels in Badass]] over the course of the series: Torg has gotten pretty good at sword-fighting, while Gwynn has learned witchcraft. Gwynn's powerup [http://sluggy.com/comics/archives/daily/090202 has clearly surpassed Torg's], and is really only kept in check by the fact that Gwynn still worries that using too much magic will unleash a [[Super-Powered Evil Side]]. She ''did'' learn every spell she knows from [[Tome of Eldritch Lore|Book of]] [[Names to Run Away From Really Fast|E-Ville]], afterall.

* In ''[[Sluggy Freelance]]'' both Torg and Gwynn have [[Took a Level in Badass|Taken Levels in Badass]] over the course of the series: Torg has gotten pretty good at sword-fighting, while Gwynn has learned witchcraft. Gwynn's powerup [http://sluggy.com/comics/archives/daily/090202 has clearly surpassed Torg's], and is really only kept in check by the fact that Gwynn still worries that using too much magic will unleash a [[Super-Powered Evil Side]]. She ''did'' learn every spell she knows from [[Tome of Eldritch Lore|Book of]] [[Names to Run Away From Really Fast|E-Ville]], afterall.

== Web Original ==

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[[Category:Tabletop Game Tropes]]

[[Category:Wizards and Witches]]

[[Category:Linear Warriors, Quadratic Wizards]]

[[Category:CRPG Tropes]]

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