Magic Versus Science: Difference between revisions

{{trope}}

 

{{quote|''"Science is a way of talking about the universe in words that bind it to a common reality. Magic is a method of talking to the universe in words that it cannot ignore. The two are [[Young Wizards|rarely]] [[Magitek|compatible]]."''

 

Once upon a time in [[Real Life]], Magic was indistinguishable from Science, and both went hand in hand with Religion. Over the course of history, they began to drift apart. By the time of the Industrial Revolution, Science was an independent field.

 

{{examples}}

** Of note, esper abilities require mental training to define a "personal reality" where their power can function, while magic-users instead call on the realities of supernatural beings. As a result, using magic can injure or kill an esper.

** Oddly enough, the leader of the scientific side used to be one of the leaders of the magic side. This defection is one of the main reasons the magic side has it in for the scientific side.

* ''[[Magic Users Club]]'' has ultra-tech aliens versus high-tech humanity; even with [[Kill Sat|KillSats]], [[Curb Stomp Battle|the obvious happens]]. They even get bonus points for not having sound in space. Then a Japanese high school club uses [[Magic A Is Magic A|magic]] against them and they run away.

 

* The 1980s toy tie in comic ''[[ROM Spaceknight]]'' plays with the standard moral and power positions with the magic-based aliens being brain-eating borderline demons, while the hero is an alien cyborg who fights them with technology. There's even a "Hall of Science" on his homeworld.

* [[Spider-Man (Comic Book)|Spider-Man]] versus Morlun. While Spidey's powers are based on "totemic spirits" (read: magic), they weren't helping that much against Morlun. So he beats Morlun with ''radiation''. After checking some of Morlun's blood under a microscope.

*** Of course, [[One More Day|none of it happened now]].

* As for [[Iron Man]], he treats magic as a form of science he admits that he does not understand. Furthermore, if you try attacking him with magic spells, don't get your hopes up since this [[Gadgeteer Genius]] is often able to counter anything you throw at him with his technology.

** [[The Worf Effect|It really shouldn't have]] but it did.

** One of the scientists had stolen a machine from the future that, in his words, tries to open up an empty space the size of a football stadium inside Black Adam's skull. Thank Ra it only have one charge.

 

== [[Fan Works]] ==

 

== [[Film]] ==

* [[Kim Newman]]'s short story "[[Swellhead]]'' features Richard Jeperson, a psychic investigator (magic), and Adam Onions, a government think-tank scientist who investigates the paranormal (science), who have a long-standing enmity and a history of quarrelling about this very subject. The story presents Jeperson as more in the right, although crucially, he's not anti-science; he just opposes Onions' brand of blinkered, self-serving and close-minded form of science.

 

* In ''[[Star Trek]]'' most of the characters are generally adamant that everything is scientifically explainable, even when it's not.

** Picard firmly rejects the notion that Q is a "god", even though Q is capable of literally any feat traditionally performed by gods (including raising the dead and creating entire worlds) and despite the fact that his powers are wholly inexplicable to human science.

** Picard also cites abandonment of belief in the supernatural as a critical milestone in any race's evolution. Yet his bartender is hinted at being immortal. In fact, his Klingon security officer believes in the Klingon religion. (There were Gods but the first two Klingons killed them and now they rule the afterlife.) Picard himself is made a major figure in the heavily ritualised Klingon Government with the right to choose the successor to the Emperor, a position which is clearly stated to be a stand-in for the soon-to-return Klingon Messiah, Kahless!

** This is from [[Hollywood Atheist|Gene Roddenberry]]'s insistence. He was firmly atheistic, and ham-fisted this view into characters from time to time. When it became clear that the view of everything being scientifically explainable and understandable by humans, despite the limits of human understanding being clearly shown (super beings like Q are as mentally advanced above humans as humans are above amoeba), it unintentionally deconstructed the trope, even parodied it. It was obvious there were things beyond human scientific knowledge, and perhaps the knowledge of any physical being, so the refusal to accept the supernatural as even possible wasn't out of enlightenment, but stubbornness, ego, and ignorance. Fortunately, this improved later on in the franchise's life, where people do express faith in what they cannot scientifically explain, or be skeptical without being dickish about it.

*** It improves so much that one of the main plotlines of ''[[Deep Space Nine]]'' was that the highest-ranking Starfleet Officer (of the regular cast) was the [[Chosen One]] of a prophesy. He must become deeply involved in the local religion, especially since he actually does ''talk to their Gods'' and literally fights a number of times against people possessed by that religion's equivalent of the devil. He does all this while remaining a science-loving Starfleet Officer. Right up until he discovers that he is a Demi-God and asks if he can take a Sabbatical to teach his people, who are Gods, what the linear time is like!

**** Although in this case, unlike with Q, the "Gods" are just unusual beings that are beyond humanity, rather than all-powerful.

****** The lines; It was obvious there were things beyond human scientific knowledge, and perhaps the knowledge of any physical being, so the refusal to accept the supernatural as even possible wasn't out of enlightenment, but stubbornness, ego, and ignorance. Fortunately, this improved later on in the franchise's life, where people do express faith in what they cannot scientifically explain, or be skeptical without being dickish about it.----- Are the obvious lines of an ignorant fundie... Making ''ad ignorantiam'' arguments for religion to be respected. Roddenbery probably understood enough of philosophy to understand that if you cannot pragmatically derive any benefit from a supposition you cant even prove the you must discard the supposition, and falsifiability, both principles, pragmatic enjoyment of a supposition and its falsifiability is enough to dismiss ''All'' religions and metaphysical postures and with the way science has advance by the time the series are set it it becomes obvious that progress can only be achieved through this skepticism to the meaningless.

* In the [[Buffy the Vampire Slayer|Buffyverse]], magic and the paranormal are a carefully-guarded secret. When the US government discovers the existence of demons and other monsters, they assume they're simply rare animals, mutants, or products of [[The Virus]], and so start experimenting with them in order to turn them into weapons. In the fourth season, they soon learn they ''can't'' control it, when their prototype [[Ninja Pirate Zombie Robot|human/undead/demon/cyborg]] manipulates them into doing as he wants. This comes to a head when Buffy, herself temporarily fused with Willow's magic prowess, Giles's knowledge, and Xander's spirit, beat the ever-living shit out of the combo-demon after a season of it handing her ass to her. In his commentaries, [[Joss Whedon]] notes that it came down to magic versus science, and in a situation like that, "magic would kick science's ass". This idea did get a bit broken by the [[Word of God]] that people who do impossible things with science on the Hellmouth (such as create a demonic Frankensteinian nuclear-powered cyborg) are actually using magic without knowing it.

* Thoroughly averted in the later ''[[Wizardry]]'' games. Magic, [[Psychic Powers]], and sci-fi technology all get along just fine, a dragon owns a starship, the final trilogy of the series takes place on three different planets, and several races are shown to wield magic, psionics, and advanced technology simultaneously with no problems. Oh, and there are robots (''not'' [[Magitek]]) that can cast spells.

** Given that one of androids was made by a man who [[Ascend to a Higher Plane of Existence|sort of became a god]] and others by a [[Mad Scientist]] who [[A God Am I|wants to do the same]], it's hard to tell.

* ''[[Total Annihilation Kingdoms]]''. The original game has as its backstory the fact that magic-using [[Precursors]] wrecked the world in a magical war, so magic is forbidden. Eventually a Mage Emperor arises, has four children and later disappears: two of his children heavily restrict magic in their kingdoms, the other two embrace it. The trope is played more straight in the sequel ''The Iron Plague'', when a fifth kingdom—founded by the Emperor after he vanished—invades, rejecting magic utterly and using [[Steampunk]] technology.

* Mixing spells and technology in ''[[Magical Diary: Horse Hall]]'' is hugely taboo. Doing it after being warned or even asking too many questions will get you expelled... and ''[[Laser-Guided Amnesia|brainwiped]]'' to boot. We don't yet know what the reason is behind this.

** Also, it's pointed out that studying how magic works and experimenting to improve your spells ''is'' science, and also perfectly acceptable. Just don't use the word science or the wizards get nervous.

* ''[[Final Fantasy]]'' games sometimes invoke this trope. Villains often see themselves as championing one side or the other (or the combination in Magitek), but the good guys are usually willing to use both science ''and'' magic, with a healthy respect for both.

* In the PC-98 era of ''[[Touhou]]'', Gensokyo was firmly on the magic side of things, with occasional [[Mad Scientist]] / [[Gadgeteer Genius]] characters decried as heretics for their focus on science over magic.

** However, in the more recent Windows games, science seems to be more widely accepted in Gensokyo, primarily by virtue of the [[Gadgeteer Genius]] kappa like Nitori, and the efforts of [[Physical God]]dess Kanako Yasaka to bring about an Industrial Revolution. The games are still primarily [[Magical Girl]] [[Shoot'Em Up|Shoot Em Ups]] in fantasy Japan, but there's now some [[Schizo-Tech]] thrown in.

'''Cinderella:''' '''''ME!''''' }}

* In ''[[Adventurers!]]'', Ardam reminds that, at least in an [[RPG Mechanics Verse]], [https://web.archive.org/web/20090525043731/http://www.adventurers-comic.com/d/0152.html "Technology and magic do not mix. Remember? Someone goes crazy or things explode."]

** That said, there is a running gag of science teachers disapproving or even ''crying'' when something sufficiently magical happens, even when they can't see it. Never Tedd or anyone else in on the [[Masquerade]], though.

* In ''[[The Specialists]]'', [[Ghostapo]] vs [[Stupid Jetpack Hitler]] as [http://thespecialistscomic.com/page-59/ rival producers] of ''ubermenschen''.

** Dr. Venture appears to be correct by [[Word of God]]. Interestingly, Dr. Venture has utilized at least two technologies that approximate necromancy, which Dr. Orpheus (himself a [[Necromancer]]) is quick to dismiss as abominations. Granted, Dr. Orpheus' resurrections probably aren't as messy...

** Rather cleverly, Dr. Orpheus magically senses a computer backup of Hank and Dean's brains as their ''[[Large Ham|VERY SOULS!!]]''

* Reed Richards refuses to believe Diablo's magic is anything more that sufficiently advanced technology until he defeats Diablo and yells "HA! TAKE THAT MAGIC!" in ''[[Fantastic Four: World's Greatest Heroes]]''.

* In ''[[Avatar: The Last Airbender]]'' "[[Avatar: The Last Airbender/Recap/Book 1/14 The Fortuneteller|The Fortuneteller]]", the group goes to see a fortune teller, and while Katara is a believer, Sokka spends much of the episode trying to convince people that magic is not real by using science and reason. One of the skeptics points to simple rain. "Can your science explain ''that''?" "Yes, yes it ''can''!"

** In a wider perspective, magic versus science is also what determines how likely benders are to be born. The heavily spiritual Air Nomads were all benders, while the industrialized Fire Nation has the lowest ratio of any nation.

** This is evidently going to be a major theme in the [[Sequel Series]], ''[[The Legend of Korra]]''.

* This is a recurring theme in the trilogy of [[crossover]]s between ''[[The Fairly OddParents]]'' and ''[[The Adventures of Jimmy Neutron: Boy Genius]]''. Jimmy, despite seeing Cosmo, Wanda, Fairy World as a whole, and several magical feats preformed, still flat out refuses to believe magic has anything to do with it. In the comics published in ''Nickelodeon Magazine'', he accepts magic, but argues with Timmy over which is the best.

* ''[[The Nightmare Before Christmas]]'' has this, sort of. Note that Santa can (presumably) do magic, while Jack's way of going at Christmas is more scientific.

 

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