Dragon Age II/WMG: Difference between revisions

* Assuming The Exiled Prince DLC is canon, no matter what you choose to do with Anders in the final act {{spoiler|Anders will die}}. {{spoiler|Choosing to spare him after he blows up the Chantry (Either let him stay in the party or run off) will make Sebastian swear to hunt Anders down with the Starkhaven army. Seeing how Anders was willing to "pay with his life" for what he has done, it's unlikely he'd deny Sebastian the revenge he deserves. The other choice, of course, would be to kill him yourself.}}

** If you keep Anders in your party then you convince him to fight this revolution he's started. Until said revolution is over, I can see Anders brushing off Sebastian. Plus you might be giving Sebastian too much credit here. He ''says'' he wants vengeance and will destroy all of Kirkwall but he says a lot of things.

**** Again, there's little reason to think that Anders would just let Sebastian kill him when he has a revolution to fight and this will likely drag on so long that afterwards a lot of people will end up dead and it won't really be the same as his dying post-DA2. And while you're right that Sebastian may not be conflicted, we haven't seen any evidence that when he does finally pull himself together that he can manage to accomplish things.

****** He was but if you let him live and convince him to help you fight, you change his mind. He realizes that he's not done yet and that it would be too easy to just lay down and die because he started the war since now he's needed to fight. His need to fight for the mages now that he's put them all in terrible danger trumps any need Sebastian personally has to avenge Elthina.

******** Yeah, eventually. Not before the mages' situation is settled.

*** Nah. Sebastian's badass enough that a fight between him and Anders wouldn't be that one-sided. But more importantly, it's made clear that the reason he hasn't gotten a power base in Starkhaven is because a) he was conflicted between Starkhaven and the Chantry, and b) if you convince him to reclaim his throne, he decides to put it on hold until the mage/templar conflict in Kirkwall is dealt with, since he (correctly) figures that's going to be a bigger problem. And given the events of the ending, I wouldn't be too surprised if he is running Starkhaven by the next time we see him, since he now has nothing to distract him.

**** Sebastian is no templar. If Anders doesn't let him within attack range and makes sure not to get hit by an arrow then it should be a reasonably easy fight for him. And don't forget that while Sebastian kept putting off building up his power base, others have had seven years to do so and Sebastian hasn't even ''been'' to Starkhaven since he was basically a male Isabela. It won't be so easy to just say 'hey, my family used to rule even though I'm practically a stranger. Follow me!' Even the likes of the Couslands and the Theirins in Ferelden had a great deal of difficulty once their family was killed off even though the Cousland starts trying to get support almost immediately and the Theirin line is a huge part of Ferelden national identity. 'Building a power base' isn't as easy as just showing up and wanting one.

***** It is far from a given that Sebastian possesses the skills to become the leader of Starkhaven, that the current leader is flawed enough for a coup to work, that Sebastian is loved enough in Starkhaven, that he didn't wait too long to attempt to claim the throne, and that he actually knows what he's doing on the ruling front given that he has zero experience. He ''could'' retake Starkhaven but it's just as likely that he doesn't manage it.

****** The epilogue seems to think he's still with Hawke three years post-Chantry...or at least as far as Varric is aware.

****** A shot to the heart or the head would be instantly fatal if the cutscenes are anything to go by. At the very least they'd incapacitate him and give Seb a chance to finish him off. Also, romance shouldn't be taken into account; yea, a romanced Anders would have Hawke handy to administer the death, but a romanced Sebastian would have the same; it's fully possible to spare Anders' life only because you need his help in the fight and fully intend on killing him later.

******* Those only happen with cutscenes and unless the point is to have Anders dead in all games so Sebastian hunts down any living Anders and kills him, I doubt it will happen.

******* A reason on why Anders, at least, won't be appearing in DAIII. He's the reason why Thedas is in absolute chaos. Imagine if he were to appear in the game in person. We are standing in front of the world's most wanted man. Why would he show himself to anyone? I'd expect he'd either be dead or in such deep hiding and protection from other mages/Hawke that no one can find him since nearly everyone in the world and their mabari want him dead.

Both the Hero of Ferelden and the Champion of Kirkwall vanish after their respective games, along with several of their companions. They were both set along their paths to greatness by Flemeth. It's entirely possible that Flemeth is gathering an army of powerful individuals to combat something even worse than the blight-such as the corrupted Golden City coming out of the Fade, and bringing the tainted Maker with it.

*** How, exactly?

Working with the above WMG, the "naturally" occurring Rock Wraiths got the primeval dwarves to thinking and they duplicated the process to create proto-golems. Alternately, the Profane ''are'' the proto-golems and the primeval dwarves were some seriously twisted [[Mad Scientist|Mad Scientists]].

** Because we have enough of that in [[Real Life]].

** That’s an interesting quote. Because Tug’s axe in Leliana’s Song has an inscription saying "The Stone lives beneath Orlais."

*** Except Meredith could hardly be considered "old". She's early middle-aged at most.

*** Not to mention that Sandal mentions a scary old lady ''laughing''. Meredith is way too stern and strict to laugh at anything, never mind the chaos that's going on by the time Sandal makes the comment. Flemeth on the other hand almost certainly indulges in a mad cackle every now and then, judging from her general hamminess.

Both the Mother in Dragon Age: Awakening and {{spoiler|Bartrand}} kept raving about how they wanted to hear "the song" again. That can't be a coincidence.

** I posit that this may change based on his interaction with Hawke. If a Rival, or not sufficiently friendly, he's going to be more antagonistic, but if a Friend, especially if a LI, he'll be seeking to do good to pay back for the wrong things he did.

To expand upon the above WMG, and taking into account the considerable ambiguity in the epilogue as to what happens to Hawke and co. Multiple DLCs may be released with each of the party members as the "main" character (ala Leliena's Song). Depending on your relationships and choices, the story will change. The only issue may be certain storylines may be complicated to program, especially if its just for a DLC. For example, Isabela could potentially be with Hawke, {{spoiler|be on the run from the Quanari if she took the relic and didn't return}} or who knows what else. Thats ONE character...out of 8 possible companions (if all are left alive/still with you end game). Names could be stuff along the lines of -

*** Unless the plot is to kill all the enemy soldiers in the castle and his pawn of a cousin, I doubt that taking control of the kingdom he's ignored for seven years and hasn't been to for longer than that would be the kind of thing a DLC could be based around. Maybe a whole game but DLCs are too short.

*** Maybe Loghain too, seeing as he's apparently still knocking about by Act 3.

I just finished my first playthrough last night and got to thinking. As far as I know we only see Elthina and Meredith in one scene together (Act 3 with Orsino's public protest) but IMO the two did look to have quite a resemblence. Now Elthina does look old but perhaps not old enough to be Meredith's mother, but she mentions at one point having presided over some Chantry ceremony for Hawke's mother (I can't remember the name but Leandra was a baby so I'm assuming some sort of baptism) which given the age of Leandra makes Elthina a fair bit older than she might look.

*** I support the romanceable part *swoons*

* ...Except the Primeval Thaig has been abandoned since before the Blights. The only living things who have lived there since then are the Profane and various other monsters inhabiting it. Sandal might have been there once before (that could have been what fratzed his mind and gave him his enchanting abilities), or maybe he's descended from whatever dwarves once lived there (assuming the Primeval Thaig was built by dwarves), but he's definitely not a "member" of the Primeval Thaig.

** "Definately" nothing! This is a fantasy game with some immortal creatures in it. Suspended animation is a possibility, among other things. The Primeval Thaig is built in dwarven architecture even though it lacks the statues of the Paragons and other important details, so it's highly unlikely that anyone else could be behind it, unless they are some forgotten people who taught the dwarves all they know.

** But Bodahn is leaving not to go with the Wardens but to have a place in Celene's court. And why is this particular Deep Roads expedition of more interest than the countless ones that take place in Orzammar but the Wardens don't see fit to spy on? It's not like anyone expects them to find what they find. And just how long was it being planned that the Warden has time to hear about it ''and'' send Bodhan over from Ferelden which, if Hawke's journey is any indication, takes two months? And why in the world would they be particularly interested in Hawke of all people? At the end of Act 1, Hawke is just an immigrant who managed to get rich in an expedition and who can fight well. Hardly a person of interest. Also, there are no Grey Wardens stationed in Kirkwall and though things had continued to deteriorate, the Qunari invasion ''and'' the Rite of Annulment really took people by surprise. And considering that the Grey Wardens basically ignored the invasion and only your sibling would help with the Rite of Annulment, why would they bother to make sure to be present if they aren't actually going to do anything?

* There's also a particularly suss line Anders gives - if the Warden was Dalish, Merrill will ask him if he has any news about him/her. Anders tells her she shouldn't wait for any news; 'The Warden likes his/her privacy.'

* Just a note, it probably wouldn't be that particular Justice. When met in awakening he says he'd never so much as thought of merging with a mage before, having no interest or experience with the waking world.

* Also, if the Maker is indeed a Fade spirit, then he would be far more likely a spirit of Faith rather than Justice.

* The Primeval Thaig is the only known thaig to be untouched by the darkspawn.

**** Could be they consider that Thaig holy ground and won't fight there.

**** The Darkspawn are soulless and mostly mindless creatures. The only thing they consider remotely "holy" are the Old Gods who whose song eternally becons them, and compels them to seek them at any cost, even though it leads to their corruption. If the Darkspawn saw the Primeval Thaig as similarly "holy", they would have corrupted it long ago. It seems more likely that either the defenses of the Thaig are too strong for them, especially as their efforts aren't very concentrated on the Deep Roads, as they are too obsessed with seeking the Old Gods, or else there's something in the Thaig that prevents them from even noticing it, or entering it that doesn't affect ordinary mortals. Maybe they can't stand red lyrium? Who knows?

* “One day the magic will come back - all of it. Everyone will be just like they were.”

*** What about the fact that a huge draw of the game is the six different origins? DA2 only lets you be mage Hawke or non-mage Hawke.

* If you look back at the earliest screenshots of Dragon Age (ie. 2004) the architecture and general design looks a lot closer to Kirkwall than the stoic, sturdiness of Ferelden.

** [[Word of God]] says that it's a bug, that Zevran is alive if you killed him in DA:O. As for Anders: He only dies in one epilogue. However, they aren’t 100% canon and the developers just ignore them if they don’t fit into the story. So the only characters who can come back from the dead are Leliana and Oghren (Yes, there seems to be a way to kill him if he wants to leave the group in Origins.).

*** It's entirely possible that Anders escaped from Rylock's custody or escaped again from the Circle and met another Grey Warden. This Warden would be interested in a desperate mage with no strong ties and could conscript him. He could meet Justice if he ever served in Amaranthine or while Justice is off trying to right various injustices he comes across in the world. It may be ''unlikely'' but it's not necessarily a retcon.

**** Why in the world would the Wardens limit themselves by only having the guy in charge be allowed to recruit people? Similarly, it seems unlikely that all of Thedas would agree to allow the Wardens to recruit literally anybody they want (though not without consequences)...as long as only the one guy did it.

****** But if only the WC can conscript someone then even if a Warden used to be WC of somewhere else, they'd lose that power when coming into Ferelden.

* Qunari. Only option that hasn't been playable yet; even darkspawn got the Chronicles dlc. Could be either an orphan raised by humans, or a child of a tal'vashoth defector. Qunari can be mages, and for anyone saying they can't be rogues, well, no one noticed the qunari that snuck into the chantry and killed Mother Patrice until they saw the arrow sticking out of her, and that's only because he let them see him to send a message. So qunari can be stealthy.

*** It wouldn't explain the romances either. Passing himself off as Anders by mimicking his passion for mages and cats is one thing, but the soap-operaish passion he gets for Hawke and Karl? There's no reason for it, in fact it distracts from the cause.

*** Actually, Nathaniel ''is'' shocked to see Anders if he died in the epilogue. Anders makes some vague comment about how they just assumed a burned corpse was his.

* That is a...disturbing thought, but plausible. He'd be pretty damn bat shit though to be deluded into thinking he's an abomination.

* A relative of the Hawkes/Amells.

* A Qunari/Tal-Vashoth.

** [http://dragonage.wikia.com/wiki/Maraas Maraas] could work as a tal'vashoth companion. Easy going, laid back, pure mercenary. Gives a good explanation as to why he's in the party and has considerable potential for character growth.

They ''did'' muck around with things like the lyrium idol in the Deep Roads, however, which mutated them horribly and caused no end of trouble for the dwarves. After the appearance of the darkspawn, the two stories merged and became one over time, with confused and frightened people ascribing the existence of darkspawn to the meddling of mages. The real source of the darkspawn taint has more to do with the old gods, as Morrigan's child will eventually demonstrate.

* Alternatively, the true origin of the Darkspawn actually relates directly to the Primeval Thaig and its red lyrium, and the Tevinter Magisters got the blame on political and religious grounds alone.

== Anders isn't actually Anders. ==

* It would certainly explain all the maleficars and abominations that spring up around the place.

== Dragon Age 4 will take place in the Tevinter Empire ==

* Or maye s/he did exist but ''Varric'' is the true hero of the story and the leader of the group who got things done and made all the decisions, but Varric subordinates himself as [[The Lancer]] in the story because he's uncertain as to how Cassandra would react.

* Or maybe all in the group pulled their weight equally and Hawke just got the glory because he/she was technically nobility with family ties to the city, and Varric played along because a good story has a proper main character.

** Or, if we want to bring this out into the metagame, perhaps way back when the writers were designing the Jade Empire they had a different idea for Thedas. Explains everything.

*** I highly doubt it's Ferelden. Ferelden seems to be the most progressive country with regards to the equality of women and they're the one that the other countries marvel at for allowing women to fight. Accent aside, I'd say Antiva seems a better bet.

What do I mean? Well, Hawke and his/her love interest (if he/she has one) run into the Warden in Orlais. If the Da:O Warden is dead, the Knight-Commander from Awakenings takes his/her place. The Warden reveals why he/she's disappeared for so long (something to do with the Divine, no doubt), and then the two join forces. When choosing your party, you have a

** Consider that Anders was at least a level 18 mage at the start of awakening, and consider how powerful he could be at the end of the game you decide to import. Also Isabela had quite the adventuring history before the first game started, enough that one expects her to be a little higher level than what she shows up in game. So call it gameplay and story segregation, call it bag of spilling, or let the next game simply up the level ante.

*** Does Merrill repeatedly tell you getting involved with her is a bad idea for you?

**** Nope, she is hesitant to pursue a relationship with you because any child from the union would be human, and she feels it is her duty to have elven children. But Hawke can persuade her out of this pretty early on, and once your in a relationship the nearest thing she has to doubts about it is {{spoiler|the possibility that Hawke will have to kill her if she turns into an abomination.}}

** Human nature being what it is, I think it's much more likely that a mage WC would be seen as an exception to the rule. Garahel was an elf and everyone acknowledges that he saved the world and yet...four centuries later elves are still treated like second-class citizens. Plus, while I know that it's possible to have an Orlesian elf or dwarf (or mage) WC in Awakening that's not canonical and I think that realistically the Wardens want to avoid pissing people off and losing their Arling so they won't really send elves, dwarves, or (known) mages to try and rule when they can just send a human and avoid any problems.

*** They don't ''need'' unsurprassed political savvy. Ask any idiot in Thedas (and outside of Tevinter in the last case) if an elf, dwarf, or mage can be a noble. They will say no because it's not some secret that nobles are humans and mages can't even live free, let alone inherit anything. Take the common people of Ferelden. They are superstitious enough to whisper about Anora being barren because the Maker was angry that they put a 'commoner' on the throne and they know that they can treat elves like crap and no one will care. If your average villager knows that, the [[G Ws]] can be trusted to be aware of these same basic facts. I can see the GW risking a human mage if they keep the mage part a secret but they wouldn't be obvious about it. If the [[G Ws]] are sensitive enough about Ferelden's feelings about Orlesians to keep the Orlesian Wardens to a minimum (as Mistress Woolsey insists that they are) then they're going to be smart enough to realize that hatred and prejudice would follow any openly mage or non-human WC. They might be able to pull it off and if there is literally nobody else then I can see how they would do that but I have a difficult time believing that the Wardens would not have a single human non-mage or secret mage that could kill darkspawn and recruit people to send to lead Amaranthine. The mages, elves, and dwarves could also be sent over and do a lot of the work, the WC just can't be an open mage, a dwarf, or an elf because the WC is now also the Arl/Arlessa. Now, while it is always in the best interest of the Wardens to play nice with the local authorities when they can afford to, normally if the people hate them it's not the end of the world. In Amaranthine, if the Wardens don't make an effort they stand the very real risk of losing Amaranthine and their precious precedent for holding land.

** True but there is a definite culture clash. The Circle may have a very free love environment but Bethany is pretty prudish in her talk with Isabela and is a virgin despite Carver not being one. Being thrust into an environment like the Circle so late in her life probably isn't going to make her see sex like they do. If Anders is right about no mage ever falling in love and it all just being about sexual gratification than I can't see Bethany getting involved much there.

***** That's a good point. Bethany doesn't seem the type to want meaningless sex (as evidenced by the fact that she's a virgin when Carver isn't and it would probably be easier for a woman to find someone to sleep with than a man given the double standard about sex and the fact that the man doesn't risk pregnancy and the conversation with Isabela) so if she's going to sleep with anyone, she'll be in a relationship with them first or a long time will have had to pass to change her views.

****** Meredith was so strict, she was ''having mages whipped for even talking to civilians.'' I think that falls outside simply trying to prevent abominations. With that kind of attitude, she'd probably have a mage flayed for trying to get laid.

******* And the Qunari would kill people for mages doing that. She's trying to stop the mages from influencing people or coming off as too sympathetic.

*** The King does not have a monopoly on public opinion and how things are viewed. If that were the case, he would have much less difficulty trying to improve the lot of the elves.

**** Also, ordinary people are sheeple, which seems to be reinforced by the second game. All it really takes is a particularly charismatic and influential demagogue.

***** Times change, and the Warden-Commander is now an Arl. The Hero is ''gone'' and, in all honestly, probably never coming back. Knowing [[BioWare]], the new WC could be an incompetent administrator. If the people of Amaranthine are suffering with empty stomachs and living in ramshackle, crime-ridden streets while all the arling's resources are going into fighting the darkspawn, they aren't going to be happy. These are townspeople and peasants - groups that care about being fed first, second, and third. A worthy goal, yes, but it would also highlight an important theme that being an asskicker doesn't always translate well to good governance. And don't say, "well, if a Warden-Commander is not a good administrator, he would be replaced immediately." That's not a guarantee. The First Warden is separated from Ferelden by hundreds of miles of territory currently serving as a battleground for the war, and being a Warden doesn't prevent one from having damaging character flaws or, for that matter, failing to see them in others. Just like we shouldn't judge every mage, warrior, or rogue based on Hawke, we shouldn't assume every Warden will be like ''the'' Warden.

***** A lot of people do believe in the Wardens and a lot more just don't care if you're on the right side or not or feel that the Wardens are obsolete. Even now that they've stopped a Blight, people will probably begin to look at them as unnecessary again because the Blight is gone. Ferelden had no problem with Arland kicking Wardens out for two centuries, it wasn't easy for them to convince Maric to let them back in, and at the start of the game everyone who isn't dwarven feels Wardens are largely obsolete and the PCs can ask why they should care about darkspawn since they are a dwarven problem. Maybe a lot of the people you meet ''during a Blight'' will value the Wardens but once that's over...Loghain was a big hero, too, and yet he couldn't do whatever he wanted and expect not to be turned on and neither can the Wardens. If it comes down to a fight, you can't assume that regardless of circumstances Ferelden will have the Wardens' backs.

****** We do hear a little bit about the WC that takes over after the Warden leaves. The new WC is willing to allow a templar clearly still loyal to the Chantry into the [[G Ws]] in order to harass Anders before he merged with Justice. This not only risks the Chantry learning GW secrets (which would be disastrous given how unpleasant and outright blooc magic-y they are) but it threatens the precious autonomy the Wardens have since they have ''never'' allowed the templars or anybody else to police their Wardens. The one thing that makes up for how awful being a Warden can be for mages is freedom from the Chantry as long as they stay with the Wardens and now there is a precedent for a templar to keep watch on mages even within the Wardens. That's pretty much all we know of the new WC but it really does hint of either corruption or incompetence.

** Adding to this through the Mage-Templar War Ferelden will become an Empire. Since the mages helped during the Blight they may not be seen as bad as in the rest of the world so the revolutionaries may not find many supporters there leaving it relatively together unlike Orlais and the Free Marches. Orlais would be struck first to impede an attack and once Orlais has been defeated Ferelden would turn around and conquer the relatively weak Free Marches.

** The problem with that, though, is that if the OGB is just a minor thing then that means that all of those Wardens who chose to die to end the Blight instead of sleeping with Morrigan basically died for nothing.

**** If the ritual is done then why would Alistair/Loghain/the Warden still die?

******* Sure the Warden has plenty of reason to distrust them both at the time but in the future if things work out then the story will be that the Hero of Ferelden (or their associate) chose to die pointlessly because they refused to trust the perfectly legitimate offer to save the day without their death being necessary.

** This one's tricky. Make the OGB canon, and all the players who chose not to do the ritual feel cheated. Make the sacrifice canon, and the same applies to everyone who chose to preform the ritual. In the past, [[BioWare]] generally has gone with the choice that offers greater dramatic possibilities in the future and it's hard to argue with the fact that the OGB presents much more opportunity, but then [[BioWare]] generally chooses a hard canon only with minor things, and this is arguably the biggest choice in Origins.

*** It's possible that there are other tainted magisters out there besides Corypheus. Corypheus can also clearly body-hop to a non-darkspawn without killing it and maybe he could even do it to a non-Warden so it stands to reason than another magister could do that. They could have the OGB in games where that happened and the second magister in games where it didn't (to explain it, the OGB tracked down and killed the magister). They'd have to fulfill a similar role plot-wise in what makes them so special but I think that being one of the original tainted magisters that were the chosen of Dumas and who were the first darkspawn makes them nearly as special as someone with the soul of an old god. There would have to be some differences in personality, plot, powers, ect. and I think that the OGB should be stronger but it would work.

* Perhaps some of them end up in the completely pro-mage Tevinter.

* There are a lot of issues with this theory. For one, the Stolen Throne shows that Orlais didn't have much of a vested interest in Ferelden and the emperor sent someone he disliked and was trying to get rid of to govern it and allowed him to do as he pleased, which is hardly how one would treat a valued property. They lost the rebellion but that really seems more like a lack of commitment to really retaking Ferelden than Orlais literally being unable to hold it. Remember, Orlais is constantly at war with its neighbors and so it really didn't need another war going on with Ferelden. That doesn't make Ferelden stronger militarily than Orlais. Ferelden defeating the Blight in two years does not mean that they are more amazing than other nations. In fact, given the civil war and general anarchy, they were probably ''less'' prepared for the Blight than any nation except the Anderfels when the first Blight broke out. It was a fluke that the Archdemon chose to reveal itself so early in the game and that a GW managed to kill it instead of someone else (if someone else had killed the Archdemon and it possessed a genlock, more than likely you'd have a genlock-shaped Archdemon that would be ''impossible'' to track). You're right that this will bring forth a new wave of nationalism but the other nations aren't lacking for nationalism either so that's not a Ferelden advantage. The Ferelden nobility is rarely united about ''anything.'' It's canon that they've fought a war over an apple tree before. The Bannorn will ''never'' get along. Temporarily unite in order to face external threats, possibly (though it's not assured). This might help if they were invaded again but it won't keep them a unified and strong nation. And the Orlesian nobles petty bickering is actually one of the nations' ''strengths''. A previous emperor created 'the Game' that all of the nobles are embroiled in while stripping them of any real power so Celene is the one making all the decisions instead of trying to get a coalition to agree to what's important. There also isn't much reason to think that all these apostates will flee to Ferelden who, while wanting to make life better for mages, hasn't advocated letting mages live freely anywhere which is what many apostates want. Their struggle with the Chantry also isn't exactly common knowledge and Hawke only finds out by chance. Ferelden ''is'' considered the backwater of Thedas so between that and the mage paradise that is Tevinter, most mages are probably going to choose Tevinter. Sure, there's anti-Tevinter propaganda that the Chantry spouts but they also hate apostates and the apostates are likely to take Chantry word with a grain of salt. It's also important to note that, mages or no, Ferelden is a tiny and poor land and that, game mechanics aside, a few mages can't stand up to an army and hope to win and the mages will ''always'' be greatly outnumbered by other troops (and so will the Ferelden troops). Ferelden has a ''long'' way to go before it becomes any sort of superpower. And while the Warden and Hawkes' nationalities might not ''hurt'' Ferelden, they really won't help it, either. Hawke especially since, despite being called the most important person ever, events would have largely played out the same way if she hadn't been there.

** Sten knows a few Grey Wardens and only possibly has respect for you. Take Alistair, for instance. He's a Grey Warden and yet when Sten returns home he says he met ''one'' worthy person, not that the Grey Warden order is one full of worthy individuals. It makes no more sense that Sten or his Arishok would back away from the Wardens because they met one awesome Warden than it would that they'd stay away from every other group, including nationality, that the Warden is a part of. And the Qunari won't be deterred by difficulty since their ultimate goal is to convert ''everybody'' as instructed by the Qun. Ferelden might be spared at first but eventually if the Qunari are successful they would go there. And since Ferelden has been thoroughly researched by Sten, I don't see them letting that go to waste.

**** Decadent or not, Tevinter still has far more mages than any other nation and in a one-on-one fight, a mage usually beats a non-mage. Mages are all that's stopped the Qunari from beating the Tevinter before (though Sten, I think, implied that they weren't really trying) or the entire rest of Thedas (including the super-devout Anderfels) from completing their Exalted March. Wardens are very good at killing darkspawn and they're generally stronger than your average warrior but they're not exactly unstoppable killing machines and the fact that they're Wardens don't give them any advantage over non-darkspawn any more than templars have an advantage over non-mages.

***** You mean Sophia Dryden's rebellion that we know virtually nothing about but involved a very difficult to siege fortress and a veritable army of demons? You can't just say that all Wardens are nigh-unstoppable killing machines. Becoming a Warden doesn't make you any stronger than you were before, it just makes you better able to sense darkspawn and capable of killing an Archdemon. Sure, the Wardens like to recruit only the best but this doesn't make them one-man armies. They are just elite fighters, not superhuman. Remember how all of Duncan's Wardens died at Ostagar and the Warden and Alistair would have been killed if not for Flemeth? Remember Nathaniel getting overpowered by a few guards? Remember every Warden at Vigi's Keep being slaughtered by darkspawn? Nigh-unstoppable killing machines would have been fine, particularly in the last case.

Merrill states that there is no such thing as a "good spirit", and that there never has been as they are ''all'' dangerous, which presumably includes ones of noble emotions such as Faith and Justice. We know that they turn into demons when their desires poison them enough.

The Maker was disappointed with His first children ''not'' because He was an uncaring deity, but because He knew that they were too dangerous and powerful to be left unchecked. He also realised that they all have the potential to become extremely powerful and horrific demons.

[[God Is Good|He didn't have the heart to genocide the crap out of them or]] [[Mind Rape]] [[World of Silence|them into perfect submission]] however, so He created mortals instead.

Which leads us to...

* We already know that even the spirit of Justice that had just arrived in the mortal world was already completely fanatical about his chosen virtue and couldn't comprehend the idea of extenuating circumstances.

The whole "demons are jealous of the Maker's favour" thing either a cover-up or an idealistic misconception. The reality is that demons are so tainted by their wishes that they've become an [[Always ChaoticExclusively Evil]] race of [[For the Evulz]] [[Complete Monster|Complete Monsters]].

The demons were the ones who ''really'' got the Tevinter magisters to corrupt the Golden City in a bid to make the mortals overthrow the Maker. The whole thing was a [[Xanatos Gambit]]: if the magisters were successful in destroying the Maker, worship of demons would spread worldwide and they would rule the world. If they were cast out, they come back as tainted monstrosities that the demons could then guide to the so-called "Old Gods" (who were really just very powerful dragons) to continually destroy the mortal world. In their desperation, more people would turn to means such as blood magic or consorting with the demons to gain power... which has the side-effect of creating abominations in many circumstances.

Alternatively, the First Darkspawn were a kind of Abomination, but the plot and result were the same.

Isn't it strange how, all of a sudden, the Player has a voice? With everyone who's met the Warden Lampshading the fact that the Warden doesn't have much of a voice, it seems like Bioware won't be giving him/her one. The Warden appearing is prett much a given - but how do you put him/her in-game without taking away the crucial element of customization? Easy - make him/her the Player Character! But then what's the point of Hawke? Well, the reason he/she got a voice wasn't due to popular demand - it's because he/she is going to be a companion. Prove me wrong.

*** Their job is to fight darkspawn and end Blights. They aren't the only people who can fight darkspawn but because they can sense them and don't risk becoming tainted in the process they are by far the best. They are the only people who can end Blights. The world needs them doing their job. By Awakening, we have a GW Arl and a possible GW King (perhaps even a GW Queen as well). That kind of thing ''never'' happens but now it's a foot in the door. Maybe the effects won't be immediate but it's a precedent and the First Warden admits that that's what he's going for. He wants more political power and I really can't see how this is supposed to be a good thing. Surely they can do their jobs without being ''nobles.'' If anything, being tied to a land and noble obligations will less their autonomy.

**** It was never a question of the First Warden not wanting to risk it; it's whether it's in the best interest of the non-Wardens to do this. A Blight only comes along so often (and when it does and we don't have someone like Loghain refusing to believe it because of his personal issues with Flemeth and the Orlesians then the Wardens would quickly be given power again like they always do) and the rest of the time the Wardens' history of horrible decisions and abuse of power make giving them more power a horrible idea.

** Fenris might have reacted better if the mother he freed weren't dead and the sister he freed weren't so bitter and insisting that he did her no favor while trying to return him to slavery. He basically finds out that all of his misery is something he signed up for and that it was ultimately for nothing.

** Fenris can't be possessed? And either way, possession is not Fenris' sole fear. Danarius was never possessed nor was Hadriana. He thinks that those with magic will inevitably abuse it and very possibly knows just how easily he would give into a demon depending on if he was there when you helped Feynriel.

*** I wouldn't say it was the best possible outcome but more like the only reasonable outcome. It was either live in the deep roads, die, or free Corypheus. We also don't know if {{spoiler|possessing a grey warden}} makes him any weaker. Its akin to how an archdemon posesses a darkspawn if killed. Assumingly they still retain the majority of their power or find a way to regain all their power since the blight continues.

*** Darkspawn Chronicles wasn't much loved given that it was impossible to figure out how things must have gone down to give Alistair the allies he had and why would anyone in-game want to hear about what Varric thinks may have happened if Hawke had died? Besides, if Bethany didn't get dragged to the Circle or Carver joined the templars, they would have died or become Grey Wardens down in the Deep Roads. And then a few more people might have died before the Arishok could be brought down by Meredith and Orsino's forces but it would have been done and Meredith's forces would have slaughtered Orsino's during the Rite of Annulment pretty much the same way it goes down if Hawke ''is'' there so there wouldn't really be much of a change from canon.

*** When I said Darkspawn Chronicles, I simply meant a hypothetical, non canon situation. If Carver and Bethany were the protagonists, things may have unfolded differently, and they may not have contracted the taint in the deep roads. Hawke got the ball rolling in a specific way in Dragon Age 2 when he impressed the Arishok with his abilities. Bethany, Carver, and the rest of the party might not have been good enough to draw that attention. The Qunari issue may have gone over completely differently. As would the Mage-Templar issue.

* To be fair it did a good job of painting the mages that don't happen to be related to you in a pretty poor light, as well.

A more subjective interpretation of the song: "I'm not Calling you a liar" refers to everyone in the party in the first few lines by dives into an Anders and Hawke romance later on. The "liar" is referring to Varric who lies but is obviously much more than just a person who makes up hero stories. The "thief" is of course Isabela {{spoiler|for stealing the tome of koslum and starting the whole mess of act III}} but being much more than a thief for {{spoiler|returning out of loyalty}}. The "ghost" is Fenris who has powers which are like a ghost (Going through people) and reinforcing this is his personal skill "Lyrium ghost". "I love you so much, I'm gonna let you kill me" refers to both Aveline and Merrill. As in Merril's companion quests {{spoiler|The keeper loved her so much that she took the demon into her body just to save her}} and for Aveline's husband who was infected by the taint early on.

Somewhere, I can’t quite remember where, the number of Circles in all of Thedas is said to be 18. After the events of Origins, I think the Fereldan Circle can be written off. Even under the Mage ending, barely any of the mages survived. Even ten years later, it’s unlikely that they’ve recovered enough strength to make a meaningful contribution to the mage’s efforts. Ditto for the Kirkwall Circle. The Starkhaven Circle was destroyed, and any survivors merged with the Kirkwall Circle, so see above. While we haven’t actually seen the Circle in Val Royeaux, it’s described to be even more draconian than the Fereldan Circle. It’s also in the capital city of the Andrastian Chantry, a.k.a. Templar Central. Draconian measures plus a huge complement of hostile guards trained specifically to defeat you? I think you can safely be written off. That leaves 14 other Circles, scattered all across Thedas. Additionally, both Orlais and Fereldan only have one Circle for the entire kingdom, and the Kirkwall and Starkhaven Circles are said to be the only ones in the Free Marches. Basically, all of the mages in southern Thedas have been defeated before the war even begins.

Where is this conflict going to come from? Are there that many apostates wandering the countryside, ready to jump into a war for the freedom of other people? Are the Tevinters going to open up another war to sap strength away from their losing struggle against the Qunari? Do the Tevinters even care what happens to “White” Andrastian mages? The Dalish might step in to fight the Chantry, as there’s a long and ugly history there. But the Dalish have so few people and are so scattered it’s unlikely that they could turn the tide on their own, even if they were interested.