Strawman Has a Point: Difference between revisions
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== Advertising ==
* A commercial for Kleenex paper towels (in a tissue-like box and not on a roll) uses a split screen shot of a cloth hand towel and a box of their paper towels, and shows people pulling out towel after towel, and reusing the cloth towel. The implication is that the cloth towel is dirty and gross... but it really ends up making the paper towels look wasteful and environmentally unsound.
* A Russian ad against draft-dodging shows a guy [[Do Not Do This Cool Thing|playing videogames all day long]] [[Basement Dweller|in his mother's house]]<ref>
{{quote|'''Mother:''' Why does he need to join the army anyway? He's a nice guy, he's got a better purpose than that!}}
* This trope led to one of the biggest advertising mishaps ever: "An unfair comparison between the Mustang and the Javelin." In this 1968 magazine ad, American Motors proudly compared their new Javelin to the Ford Mustang. Aside glossy photos of both cars, the sparse ad copy stressed laughably petty things like "the Mustang's thin blade bumpers don't photograph well" and "our Javelin lists for no more than the Mustang." And the Mustang just plain looked better. To make matters worse, AMC ran the same ad for their Ambassador (vs. the Rolls-Royce), the Rambler (vs. the popular Volkswagen bug), and two other cars. So not only did AMC spend millions of dollars on slick, effective ads that made their competitors' cars look better, they did so ''to their entire product line''. See the Javelin ad [http://www.adspast.com/store/skin1/images/pics32/amc672mustjavelin.jpg here].
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** It was supposed to be a nuanced exploration of whether or not [[Super Registration Act|compulsory registration for superheroes]] was necessary to curb catastrophic mistakes and potential abuses of power. ''Both sides'' were supposed to have valid points (but supposedly supporting the Pro-Registration overall). Unfortunately, due to insufficient coordination between the writing teams of different books (as well as a ''serious'' difference in the skills of the writing teams - the anti-reg side got '''[[J. Michael Straczynski]]'''), [[Mark Millar]] failed at making readers sympathize with the pro-registration side and both sides ended up looking like straw men, with the pro-registration side looking particularly monstrous. For starters, the SHRA criminalized the act of apprehending a criminal when you yourself are an average citizen, as well as SHIELD trying to arrest [[Captain America (comics)]] for refusing to join the pro-reg side, ''before'' it was actually signed into law. To make matters worse, the actual specifics of registration [[Depending on the Writer|varied from book to book]]:
** In pro-reg books, registration was treated as a prerequisite to a superhero being a crime=fighter. Supers were given the option of not using their powers, getting trained in using them properly and to establish that they were not a threat to themselves or others, and going to prison. If they did not want to fight crime after they were finished being trained, then they didn't have to, and there was no indication that they would be forced. It was just shown that a lot of people chose to fight crime because they had made friends with their fellow trainees and they felt like they should use their powers for good. However, the pro-registration side was still not sympathetic because Tony Stark and Mr. Fantastic were portrayed as being jerks, who felt like [[Omniscient Morality License|they knew what was best]], as well as committing some blatant war crimes. But they were making excellent points throughout and [[Take Our Word for It|if Mr. Fantastic's math can be believed]], it was the lesser of a few evils.
*** Mr. Fantastic's math would have been more believable had it not been for the existence of the Thinker amongst the FF's rogue's gallery, a man who has spent his ''entire career'' proving, often painfully, that while psychohistory is ''mostly'' reliable for predicting things ''it inevitably fails in any situation involving superhumans'', because superhumans are walking statistical anomalies. A follow-on issue directly Lampshades
** In anti-reg books, SHIELD [[Mutant Draft Board|forcibly conscripted anyone who happened to have any kind of superpowers]] whether they wanted to fight crime or not, and the pro-reg heroes were [[Well-Intentioned Extremist|Well Intentioned Extremists]]. When [[Luke Cage, Hero for Hire]] said he just was going to not use his powers and stay out of it, armed gunmen showed up at his door on midnight of the day the act went into effect. In ''Avengers: The Initiative,'' kids recruited were told that they either join the initiative, get their powers taken, or go to jail. Cloud 9, whose power was a little cloud that could make her fly, was recruited, turned into a sniper and sent to killing missions, even though she never wanted to use her power for crime fighting. In addition, Stark orchestrated an attack on [[Black Panther]], foreign chief of state, because his wife (who had diplomatic immunity) refused to sign up. It was quite clearly a case of "work for us or else".
** There is also Sally Floyd, the straw news reporter who argued to Captain America that the ideals he represents had already died a long, long time before he did. Though it doesn't bode well for Cap, it may very well be a case of [[Family-Unfriendly Aesop|sad]] but [[Truth in Television|true]].
*** Except that her arguments centered around the fact that Captain America was not heavily involved in modern, supposedly important pop culture like Nascar and [[Hilarious in Hindsight|MySpace]]. She might theoretically have had a point if she'd actually brought up anything about the basic ideals of the country having shifted, but all she manages to do is point out that she's shallow and a lot of other people are shallow, so obviously Cap is wrong somehow for not also being shallow.
* The first comic appearance of Alejandro Montoya/El Aguila (Marvel) has the hero returning to his [[Toros Y Flamenco|home village]] and being attacked by random villain El Conquistador for being "the shame of Spain". Consider El Aguila has just mysteriously returned from (fled?) New York after living there for decades and constantly wears a rather ridiculous bright red and black [[Spexico|Zorro-esque]] suit. Well...
* Rorschach from ''[[Watchmen]]'' is pretty much built on this. The reader first sides with him, as in a grim and gritty world where crime is unstoppable, isn't evil stark black and good shining white? Next to Rorschach's absolute refusal to compromise, and his cathartic attacks on criminals, the rest of the morally conflicted Watchmen pale in comparison. But while certainly memorable and fun to read about, he's still a violent, ineffectual, anti-intellectual, homophobic, hypocritically mooching, misogynistic, self-righteous hobo. He basically self-destructs because he can't deal with moral complexity above the level of a small child: compare his childhood essay on why bombing Hiroshima was a good thing with his reaction to {{spoiler|Adrian Veidt's use of a similar act of mass destruction to ensure world peace}}
* In ''[[Green Lantern]]: Rebirth'', the fact that [[Batman]] immediately doesn't believe in Hal Jordan (for reference, the story retcons Hal's [[Face Heel Turn]] into the villain "Parallax" as being the result of an alien fear entity named "Parallax" [[Grand Theft Me|possessing him]]) and won't let him lead the charge against Parallax is supposed to be indicative of his mistrustfulness and paranoia. The reader is supposed to cheer when Hal [[One Hit KO|punches him out]]. But if you think about how in his former time as an [[Omnicidal Maniac]], Hal!Parallax showed no signs of being anything other than Hal Jordan-turned-evil, it seemed very reasonable of him to not put so much faith in him, especially given that there was no proof that Hal's intentions were benevolent except his own word.
* ''[[Kingdom Come]]'' deliberately invokes this as part of its [[Deconstruction]] of both the [[Dark Age]] of comics and of the [[Anti-Hero]] comicbook character (particularly the [[Nineties Anti-Hero]]). At one point, one of the "newbloods" calls out Superman to argue the logic that their brand of "lethal justice" has saved lives, thanks to their willingness to kill [[Complete Monster
* From the [[Silver Age]]: [[Action Comics]] #176 ''Muscles For Money'', where [[Superman]] decides to start charging money to save people. While it's certainly true that Superman was doing some reprehensible things (charging insane amounts, forcing people to sign contracts before he'll save their lives, etc) the primary argument seems to be that Superman doesn't deserve ''any'' sort of reward for the good he does. The worst part is when Superman politely requests the $10,000 reward for two criminals he brought in only to have everyone declare him a money-grubber for it, despite the fact that this is a reward the police themselves had offered and which anyone else besides Superman would have been given happily.
* ''[[Batman]]'''s Jason Todd (the second Robin, who was murdered by the Joker), following his revival, goes on a violent crusade on crime and becomes convinced that the only true way to defeat crime is by controlling it and killing any villain instead of simply arresting them. While his methods are definitely brutal, he still raises a good point on the naivety behind the idea that someone like [[Joker Immunity|Joker can continue to walk the earth]] even though he'll continue to kill countless people. While he is a typical strawman in the sense that any hero willing to kill is portrayed as a total psychopath, his comments about the Joker are portrayed fairly. Jason challenges Batman, asking him how he could have any justifiable reason for letting the Joker live. In a significant variation to how most writers approach the issue, Batman tells him that it's not a matter of it being too hard; rather, he won't kill him because it'd be too easy. He really wants to kill Joker, but he's scared that he won't be able to stop with just him. Jason points out the slippery slope nature of that argument, asking why heroes always say "there's no going back". He's not asking him to kill regular criminals, or even any other supervillains. He just wants him to kill the Joker, an unrepentant mass murderer who's far beyond redemption and [[Death Is Cheap|personally killed Jason himself]]. Batman can give no other answer than a solemn apology.
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{{quote|'''Batman:''' "My actions don't require any defense. In the same situation, I'd do it again. As individuals, and even more so as a group, the Justice League is far too dangerous to lack a failsafe against any misuse of our power. If you people can't see the potential danger of an out-of-control Justice League, I don't need to hear a vote. I don't belong here."}}
* ''[[Red Sonja]]'' - She-Devil with a sword" #1-7 has the Borat-Na-Fori religion, which practices human sacrifice. The Celestial, the antagonist, and some sort of strawman for organized religion, points out that his religion is the only thing keeping the entire realm from plunging into barbarism, and that Sonja is only going to make things worse by bringing him down. Turns out that he is absolutely right. At best, the moral of the story is that [[Unfortunate Implications|the Mexican Indians had it coming]].
* ''[[Magnus, Robot Fighter]]'' eventually ascended the straw
== Fan Fiction ==
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'''FaFic ([[You Make Me Sic|sic]]) Apologists:''' Well YOU have them get raped and abused and they have LOTS of sex. }}
* [[Ensemble Darkhorse|Edfred]] of ''[[Naruto Veangance Revelaitons]]'' complains about the [[Jerk Sue|protagonist]]'s misbehavior in his shop, which includes viciously assaulting him on several occasions, but the author expects us to view him as unreasonable and mean.
* In the [[Dragon Age II]] fanfic "Magic's Blade" by TheNuttyAuthor, there are Maric Penderghast, and Feynriel, who is taken in by Hector Hawke (the protagonist). Feynriel argues that people should be free to do what they want without consequences, and that Hector shouldn't be telling him what to do even if it is what Hector feels is best for him. The author intends for the reader to feel exasperated with Feynriel and side with Hector, but some readers might believe that Feynriel is in the right. Likewise, with Maric, he is set up as an extreme contrast to Hector Hawke, the rough-around-the-edges swordsman [[Invisible to Gaydar]]
* In the ''[[Avatar: The Last Airbender]]'' webcomic ''[[How I Became Yours]]'', Mai hides letters from Katara to Zuko telling him that she's pregnant. When confronted by Zuko, she gives a reason that [http://i762.photobucket.com/albums/xx265/ReneeLuvsZutara/HIBY%20Chapter%201/028.jpg does make sense]: She wants to prevent a possible civil war coming from all the succession problems that the existence of a bastard child of the Fire Lord would bring. (And not to mention, well, Zuko impregnated Katara ''[[Your Cheating Heart|when he already was married to Mai]]''). However, since this is [[Ron the Death Eater|Mai]] and she is [[Possession Sue|Katara's]] [[Die for Our Ship|love rival for Zuko]], she's [[Derailing Love Interests|presented as a]] [[Clingy Jealous Girl|petty and clingy]] [[Designated Villain]] who does this only out of bitterness and jealousy... and we're supposed to side with ''Zuko'' [[Domestic Abuser|when, in response to her rant, he humiliates and beats her]] before abandoning his war-torn nation to run away with his babymama.
* About two-thirds of the way through ''[[Dumbledore's Army and the Year of Darkness|Dumbledores Army and The Year of Darkness]]'', Zacharias Smith decides to leave the DA. When he does so, he explains that the DA is sounding more and more like a martyrdom cult with each passing day, and the focus of the group has changed from "Resist the Death Eaters" to "Die heroically". The DA counterargument is... to agree with every word he says and ask, "What's the problem with that?" Bear in mind that all of the members of Dumbledore's Army are ''[[Child Soldiers|teenagers]]'', and Zacharias Smith (who was a strawman in canon!) suddenly becomes the [[Only Sane Man]].
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* The so-called villains in ''[[The Conversion Bureau]]'' see ponies as a threat to mankind - and given that the ponies' goal is to remove all of humanity and make them conform, ''they're absolutely right''.
** Now that CB has become a recursive fanfic franchise, at least half of the Conversion Bureau fanfic out there has the authors rooting for the humans.
* In one scene from the "My Little Pony: Friendship is Magic" fanfic ''Alicornundrum'' by RealityCheck, Princess Celestia confronts Sunset Shimmer on her (canon) flaw of having obsessed on obtaining the power of an alicorn princess without devoting any effort to either becoming worthy of that power or sparing any thought as to what she'd do with it once she had it. Sunset reminds Celestia that the process of becoming an alicorn is immensely difficult and iffy (as only four ponies in the known history of Equestria have managed it in canon). Sunset then points out that when you have only one mortal lifetime in which to achieve an almost impossible task, and one of the rewards for successfully completing that task is ''immortality'', then its only ''logical'' to mono-focus on completing that task to the exclusion of other
== Film -- Animated ==
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** It plays with this trope, with National Security Advisor Kitz being a [[Jerkass]] with very valid concerns, such as if the device meant to achieve [[Faster-Than-Light Travel]] is actually a [[Trojan Horse]] doomsday device. Given the themes the movie touches on, however, this trope is likely to have been deliberately incurred; in the book at least, it was definitely deliberate. Near the end, Kitz accuses Arroway and the other scientists of faking the events of the story, Arroway initially thinking he is in denial but comes to realize that from an outside perspective that is indeed how it must look. She eventually takes his offer to quietly look for evidence that would support her claims rather than making public accusations of a [[Government Conspiracy]]. On the other hand, he really is concealing convincing evidence {{spoiler|(that the recorder had only static, but the length at least proved the time dilation effect was true)}}.
** Kitz does agree to give Arroway more money for research. Furthermore, in the film Kitz loses his temper at the congressional interview. That is not a sign of a person willing to consider dissent.
** On the ''other'' other hand, Arroway herself is a
* ''[[It's a Wonderful Life|Its a Wonderful Life]]'': The tropes of
* The Mexican film ''Un Mundo Maravilloso'' (which was made as a leftist [[Take That]] to the liberal and free market economic policies of recent Mexican governments), has the Minister of Economy as the antagonist, and he is portrayed as an ignorant, insensitive and greedy dick who lives comfortably on a mansion while the protagonist (a homeless, jobless hobo) is shown sleeping in the streets; however, at one point of the film the minister is shown having a conversation with the protagonist, and he mentions that sometimes he would like to be "Just as free as you are". This is portrayed as another ignorant blather from his part, but when you consider that he, being the Minister of Economy, in reality has the tremendous responsibility of keeping the economy of an ''entire'' country smooth and running, and the fact that the hobo has practically ''zero'' responsibilities and commitments, it becomes hard to argue against that. In this case, the point is not that the minister had it worse than the hobo, but the notion that success always comes with responsibilities and commitment, the film doesn't dwell on that and even portrays the middle class (a more inspiring example) as the [[Butt Monkey]].
* The closest thing that ''[[2012]]'' has to a villain is Oliver Platt's heartless presidential adviser, who's an obvious [[Take That]] to [[George W. Bush]] and Dick Cheney. However, after the fifth or sixth argument where his level-headed pragmatism is contrasted with the [[Honor Before Reason]] [[Chronic Hero Syndrome|Save Everyone]] bleeding-heart attitude of the rest of the cast, you kind of have to wonder if maybe the writers didn't secretly agree with him. Some examples:
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* ''[[Plan 9 from Outer Space]]''. Eros. Would ''you'' allow an alien species to get their hands on a device that could blow up not only the world but the ''universe''? Compare and contrast with Robert E Wise's ''[[The Day the Earth Stood Still]]''.
* A frequent problem in [[Cowboy Cop]] type movies, particularly ''[[Dirty Harry]]'', where the wishy-washy liberal superiors chastise Harry for his flagrant abuse of the rights of the suspect and ignorance of police procedure. But the thing is, they're right, and Harry would be a terrifyingly dangerous person in real life. This whole issue was deliberately acknowledged in the earlier film, ''[[Bullitt]]'', where the superior turns out to be completely right: it's not good to be a loose cannon. ''[[Dirty Harry]]'' itself acknowledged this with the second movie, with the primary antagonists being a group of Cowboy Cops. It is instructive to note that despite all the other rules he breaks, Harry has never actually killed anyone outside standard law enforcement rules of engagement.
** Even in the ''first'' movie, [[Unbuilt Trope|Harry isn't portrayed as completely in the right]]. Everyone seems to forget (probably because the sequels [[
* In the remake of ''[[The Day the Earth Stood Still]]'', various characters from the government and military are depicted as being callous, paranoid, and inhumane when they immediately imprison the injured alien visitor and attempt to interrogate him about what he's doing on Earth. Even though the viewers are supposed to be disgusted with their behavior, there's one minor problem; Klaatu is indeed planning to destroy the entire human race, taking all of a day and a couple interviews to verify it as the right course. [[Properly Paranoid|The "inhumane" government officials were completely correct to treat him as an enemy.]]
* In ''[[28 Weeks Later]]'', the American military eventually order the total execution of all non-military personnel in London, infected or not, rather than risk letting the newly-resurgent virus spread. American soldiers gun down hordes of frightened civilians who are obviously not yet infected, which is pretty horrifying. However, we also know that the virus completely wiped out Britain in a matter of weeks, so this extreme position does not seem so unreasonable. By the end, {{spoiler|we learn that the heroes' successful escape from the mass execution has, in fact, allowed the virus to spread to the rest of the world and possibly doomed the human race. It's likely that the film always intended the heroes' position to seem somewhat dubious, albeit with good intentions}}.
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* In the film version of ''[[Sgt Bilko]]'', the villain is a military higher-up who wants to run Bilko out of the Army for essentially running a team of [[Neighborhood Friendly Gangsters]] out of an American military base, and also for getting him blamed for a crime Bilko committed and getting the villain transferred to Alaska. Since this is actually a completely reasonable thing to do from any objective viewpoint, the villain is made to accomplish his goals through methods even more criminal and underhanded than Bilko's, in order to make sure he doesn't get the audience's sympathy.
* In ''[[South Park Bigger Longer and Uncut]]'', Sheila Broflowski ''initially'' has something of a point, which is actually illustrated in the early scenes of the movie. Just as she argues later, despite ''Terrence and Phillip: Asses of Fire'' being rated R, children still find ways to see it, and it actually ''does'' turn into a bad influence on them, [[Up to Eleven]] with Kenny, who [[They Killed Kenny|accidentally kills himself]] imitating the movie (though it's a scene where a character kills himself setting a fart on fire). It's only once she becomes a [[Knight Templar]] and prompts other [[Moral Guardians]] to ban it (and, you know, [[Disproportionate Retribution|start a war with Canada]]) instead of admit any responsibility over their children's actions, that she becomes a villain.
* In ''[[Easy Money]]'', Rodney Dangerfield's wicked [[Evil Matriarch|mother-in-law]] uses a substantial inheritance to basically blackmail Dangerfield into giving up the things he enjoys
* In the made-for-TV movie ''[[Zenon]]: The [[Incredibly Lame Pun|Zequel]]'', General Hammond (not [[Stargate SG-1|that one]]) arrives to decommission the station, which was still suffering the after-effects of the sabotage in the previous film. His actions are seen by the main characters as evil. Here's what he really does: decommission an unstable space station before it falls to Earth, doing untold damage, attempt to apprehend a girl who thinks it's ok to smuggle aboard a shuttle, chase after spaceship thieves, and other actions perfectly in line with what any good soldier or policeman would do.
* [[Lex Luthor]] in ''[[Superman Returns]]'' accuses [[Superman]] of [[Reed Richards Is Useless|selfishly withholding the advanced alien technology]] he inherited from his dad, so that the planet is forced to [[Holding Out for a Hero|stay dependent on Superman]]. While he's probably wrong about Superman's motives, he has a point. Sharing, say, what Kryptonian science knows about medicine or space travel or producing food would probably save a lot more lives than individually putting out fires with super breath. Ultimately, however, Superman withholds the tech because he doesn't want it to be exploited by power-hungry despots like Luthor.
* In ''[[Ferris Bueller's Day Off|Ferris Buellers Day Off]]'', vice principal [[Designated Villain|Ed Rooney]] is depicted as a [[Dean Bitterman]]-type who's seemingly trying to stop Ferris and his friends from having fun for no good reason. Except he ''does'' have good reason: it's his job to enforce school regulations, and Ferris has been breaking the regs by skipping school ''at least nine times'' before ''he hacks into the school computer'' to alter the records, and does so [[Bitch in Sheep's Clothing|by blatantly exploiting the good will of everyone around him]], including his parents. Yet, the movie turns the audience against him by having him go way too far in trying to catch Ferris; breaking into his house and [[Kick the Dog|assaulting his dog]] and having him act as though he's trying to catch Ferris out of spite instead of trying to enforce the rules.
* Dean Wormer's point of view in ''[[Animal House]]'' is
* In the hilariously [[Anvilicious]] and [[Narm
* In ''[[Indiana Jones and the Kingdom of the Crystal Skull]]'', two government agents angrily interrogate Indy after Russian spies kidnap him and an old partner of his, murder several American soldiers at a top secret test facility and make off with an alien corpse. Considering what just happened and that Indy's old partner was working with the Russians, the interrogation doesn't seem that unnecessary.
* In ''[[Accepted]]'', a high school senior rejected by every college ends up inventing one out of thin air. The thing spins out of control and becomes an actual, factual school set out of an old mental institution. The [[Dean Bitterman]] at the nearby traditional college wages an accreditation jihad against the upstart. The guy's a [[Jerkass]], and the new school (with its emphasis on the students) is presented as a brave bastion of new educational methods. But as Dean Dick points out, the new place doesn't have a health center, more than one faculty member, or even a ''library.'' One doesn't have to be a crusty old academic to argue that a college should at least have a freaking library.
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* The title character of ''[[Hitch]]'' makes some very valid points about continuing with one's life, adapting, and moving on after a relationship goes sour. He gets called out on this by one of his clients who outright calls him a coward for not chasing after one's love; granted, in the client's case, the breakup was because of a misunderstanding, but on Hitch's case there was a very clear and valid reason for it. As expected, since the film is a [[Romantic Comedy]], Hitch gives in and goes great lengths to get back his love interest even after several rejections, incurring extreme behavior and injuries to himself. Try imagining how that would work in [[Real Life]]. All which leads to the [[Why Would Anyone Take Him Back?|Why Would Anyone Take Her Back]] moment in the end.
* ''[[Other People's Money]]'':
** One of the rare deliberate examples. In it, we see a ruthless corporate shark played by Danny DeVito (no stranger to playing ruthless and underhanded business types) who launches a hostile takeover bid for a failing 'mom-and-pop' wire-and-cable company run by an idealistic, noble-hearted businessman (played by Gregory Peck, of all people), so that it can be broken apart and sold. The battle lines would seem to be clearly drawn in favour of 'ruthless corporate guy = bad', 'idealistic fatherly small businessman = good', and indeed Peck's character makes a stirring, idealistic speech to this effect towards the end. All well and
** This point is also set up earlier in the film, when the company's lawyer tries to use a quasi-ethical maneuver to buy him off. He turns her down flat, pointing out that would work out fine for him and the owner, but the stockholders would get hosed.
{{quote|'''Lawyer:''' So, you're Albert Schweitzer now?
'''Larry:''' Not Albert Schweitzer, Robin Hood. I rob from the rich and give to the middle class. Well, the upper middle class. Caviar? }}
* Many critics who disliked ''Lions for Lambs'' felt this way about [[Tom Cruise]]'s character. A Senator with Presidential ambitions, his role in the film is an interview with anti-war journalist played by Meryl Streep discussing his new plan for Afghanistan. The Senator outlines a reasonable plan and makes some good points, but the film basically expects us to side exclusively with Streep's character simply due to her being anti-war and it being an anti-war film.
* In ''[[Jaws 2]]'', it's obvious that the viewer is supposed to side with Brody, who's in the same position as he was in the previous
* ''The Green Berets'', a 1968 film about the Vietnam war starring [[John Wayne]]. The film's agenda is pro-war and one of the characters is a strawman journalist with anti-war arguments that are shown to be "weak". Most people watching the [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PLOC7evq0dU opening scenes] of the film today will root for said journalist. The fact that [[History Marches On|the verdict of history]] has not been kind to [[The Vietnam War]] and those who were in support of it probably doesn't help.
* At the end of ''[[Innocent Blood]]'', the vampire Marie, having just inadvetently created a bunch of [[Mafia]] vampires and having to clean it up, walks towards the rising sun with the intention of killing herself and thus preventing herself from making the same mistake again. She's talked out of it by her new love interest, but now that we have just seen just how easily it is to make a vampire - indeed ''multiple vampires'' in a single evening - it's hard to say she ''shouldn't'' kill herself.
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* [[Face Heel Turn|Cypher]] from the ''[[The Matrix]]'' is disillusioned with being pulled out of the Matrix and learning the [[Awful Truth]] that the real world is a [[Crapsack World]] [[Bad Future|future]]. On top of that, he's living on a cramped hovercraft and working under a guy who risks the lives of his crew to fulfill an oracle's prophecy. After he sells out his crewmates to the Agents so he can return to the Matrix with his memory wiped, he tells Trinity that he'd choose the Matrix over his cramped existence of doing what Morpheus tells him. Quite a few folks, including an in-universe faction from the Matrix Online called the "Cypherites", think he was right in his belief that a blissfully-ignorant life in the Matrix can be more real than life in the dark, desolate future of the real world. It also doesn't help that the 3rd film completely forgot that the rebels don't free adult humans from the Matrix because they have a tendency to [[Go Mad From the Revelation]], making {{spoiler|the reveal of the Matrix to the whole world}} an [[Esoteric Happy Ending]].
* In the live action film of ''[[101 Dalmatians|One Hundred and One Dalmatians]]'', the evil fashion exec Cruella Deville is dismissive of the idea that Anita, her employee, should leave her job in the event of marriage. This is meant to show Deville as callous and cynical, but her observation is most likely correct: In her words, "More good working women have been lost to marriage than war, famine, disease, and disaster. You have talent, darling. Don't squander it."
** Then again, the belief that starting a family is a bad
* ''[[Enemy of the State]]'' has a retroactive example in the [[Big Bad]], an NSA official who believes the government should have the power to secretly wiretap American citizens due to the threat of terrorism (the full scope of which most Americans, particularly those opposing the bill, were unaware of). He's shown to be willing to frame or kill off anyone who opposes him, furthering the message that the government shouldn't have the right to surveille unsuspecting Americans. The film [[Harsher in Hindsight|predates 9/11 by ~3 years]], while [[Shown Their Work|staying faithful to the NSA's full communications capabilities]], but in light of the fact that a devastating terrorist attack ([[Rule of Cautious Editing Judgement|whatever you belive its origins to be]]) in the real world prompted the government to give the NSA explicit authorization expand its warrantless wiretapping authority to American citizens, it makes the issue of whether or not the government should have this authority<ref>
* In ''[[Pirates of the Caribbean]]: Curse of The Black Pearl'', pirates are shown to be evil, murderous, and a dangerous lure for Will Turner, who only helps Jack for the sake of a rescue mission. Fast forward to the third film ''At World's End'', where the film wants you to totally sympathise with the [[Anti-Hero|pirates]] and despise the ruthless Lord Beckett. But realistically, Lord Beckett is simply cracking down on murderous criminals who deserve punishment. His actions would be socially progressive, had he not [[Jumped Off the Slippery Slope]] and then crossed the [[Moral Event Horizon]] by having a child hanged. The intent seems to have been to portray [[Grey and Grey Morality]], with everyone involved some level of corrupt (except for Will Turner), with even the heroine becoming a lying, murderous bastard.
* In ''[[La Haine]]'', the more one observes the main characters and their tendency to escalate every small issue into violence, the more one feels the police are absolutely right to treat them with suspicion and loathing at every turn, including the use of force. Though it is no doubt a [[Grey and Grey Morality]] tale, it is not that hard to be [[Rooting for the Empire]].
* In the 1976 stinker ''Rattlers,'' at one point the female lead goes off on the sexism in the professional world; it's treated dismissively by everyone in the film (including the male lead) but really, she's got a good point about how men at the time systematically denied deserved recognition in all professions to women of high accomplishment. Doesn't help that the movie's godawful.
* Many reviewers, [http://rogerebert.suntimes.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/19981211/REVIEWS/812110304/1023 particularly] [[Roger Ebert]], found this happening in ''[[Star Trek: Insurrection]]''. While [[Perfect Pacifist People|the]] [[Space Amish|Bak'u]] were supposed to come off as innocent victims of the Son'a and an under-the-table Federation, they instead came off as selfish pricks who won't share (or tolerate anyone of their own who wanted to share) their planet's amazing healing powers, leaving the rest of the galaxy to suffer diseases and ailments they themselves easily overcame. The Federation and Son'a land grab does violate the sovereignty of the Bak'u, but since the Bak'u are such [[
* Despite his decision to shut down the containment grid (primarily out of spite), [[Obstructive Bureaucrat|Walter Peck]] was right. The [[Ghostbusters]] ''were'' operating very dangerous equipment that should have been examined beforehand. His initial plea to see the containment grid was reasonable, but because he was crudely brushed off by Venkman, [[Jumping Off the Slippery Slope|he overreacted]]. Had Venkman not treated Peck and the E.P.A. like an enemy from the beginning, they could have avoided the massive meltdown. That said, Peck should have listened to the Engineer who was working for him and thought twice before de-activating the Ghostbuster's power grid. His initial approach also wasn't helped by the fact that, although his motives and concerns were reasonable, his ''attitude'' was condescending, evasive and quick-to-get-hostile, thus making it not entirely a surprise that Venkman was rubbed the wrong way by him.
** His request to see the containment grid isn't really all that reasonable. For one, he has no reason other than vague suspicion he invented himself to explain why he would need to see the power grid. Ultimately his accusations against the Ghostbusters have nothing to do with the environment at all... he thinks they're bilking people and that, despite it not being his purview, job, or power, that because he's involved with a powerful government agency he can make them stop. And Venkman's refusal to let him see it makes sense as well. The containment grid is proprietary technology and the backbone of the Ghostbusters' business... if Venkman let anyone who stopped by and asked to see it do so, they could theoretically be put out of business in months by a wave of knockoffs.
** Also, it is criminally irresponsible for an EPA agent to order that the safety systems on something labeled "hazardous waste containment" be turned off until he has verified that a) there is no hazardous waste actually in there and b) the environment will not otherwise be harmed by opening it up. Seriously, this guy is in a job where he potentially works with every form of hazmat known to
* In the second ''[[Iron Man (film)|Iron Man]]'' film, Tony Stark is [[Hauled Before a Senate Subcommittee]] in which a senator tries to convince him to hand over his [[Powered Armor|Iron Man armor]] to the government, insisting that the armor is a weapon other hostile nations are intent on reproducing. Tony refuses, arguing over the definition of the armor as a "weapon", proves the other nations' [[Iron Man]] knockoffs are not a real threat and that he alone is managing a type of nuclear deterrent, leaving the committee chamber to thunderous applause. However, the film purposefully shows Tony's mistakes in judgement as Tony (before later [[Character Development]]) is a very unstable individual (getting drunk while wearing the armor and using his repulsor weapons wildly), and that all it takes is one smart individual to make a breakthrough to that can challenge his superiority (meaning he isn't as unique as he think he is). At the end of the film, [[Take a Third Option|Tony ends up consulting for the government]] (a tie-in to the [[The Avengers (film)|Avengers film]]), while still maintaining ownership of the armor and the government is developing their War Machine companion armor. The Senator still hates him, though.
* ''[[Teaching Mrs. Tingle]]'': the title character is a high school [[Sadist Teacher]] who has it in for the lead character, who is just trying to become valedictorian. At the start of the film, Mrs. Tingle gives a C grade to a project she worked 6 months on, a historical recreation of the diary of a girl [[Burn the Witch|accused of being a witch]] during the time of the Salem Witch Trials. Except that [[Did Not Do the Research|the diary describes witch-burnings]], when the accused witches at Salem were all hanged, meaning the teacher was well within her rights to mark the assignment down.
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== Literature ==
* The ''[[Anita Blake Vampire Hunter]]'' series is full of this. Richard (the avatar of the author's ex-husband) frequently rants against the murder, rape, hypocrisy, greed, and general bad behavior of the [[Mary Sue]] protagonist, allegedly to show what a self-hating mess he is. The author is apparently unaware that he's the only one who makes any kind of logical, intelligent points about the
* In the second ''[[Death World]]'' book (the [[Harry Harrison]] series), a major character exists solely so the [[Author Avatar]] (and [[Mary Sue]]) can explain to him the virtues of moral relativism. Only problem is, while the character is a dog-kicking [[Designated Villain]], the arguments he makes against relativism aren't really shot down, just ignored in favor of the main character being made to look much cooler than him.
* The [[Big Bad|Pale Woman]] in the ''[[Realm of the Elderlings]]'' novel ''Fool's Fate'' actually has a very good point: reviving an apex predator with the capacity to wipe out humanity and no real reason not to is a pretty darned stupid idea. It is primarily the political implications that drive Fitz to oppose her, though.
* ''[[Left Behind]]'':
** This is a huge, huge problem with the series of books, as noted in the [http://slacktivist.typepad.com/slacktivist/left_behind/ Slacktivist blog deconstructing it]. The main heroes are such [[Jerk Sue
** [[Alternative Character Interpretation|Arguably]], the "heroes" are supposed to be callous to the suffering at this point, as they haven't been "saved" and are still unrepentant sinners. The problem is, even after they are saved and supposedly become model Christians, they are [[Ignored Epiphany|still obnoxious jackasses who consider others' suffering an inconvenience]]. The only notes of genuine regret or contrition come from the supposedly un-saved.
** The overall premise of the entire series is this. God is set up as the good guy and Nicolae Carpathia (the antichrist) is the bad guy. Although Carpathia is definitely a murderous tyrant, his actions pale in comparison to the billions actively killed by God.
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* ''[[The Saga of Seven Suns]]'' has a very odd case of this, not with the strawmen having a point, but the good guys (Theroc and roamers) not having one. Like, the roamers complaining about the Hansa not lending assistance to Theroc after just having denied any access to starship fuel. Or the roamers complaining that the Hansa killed a rogue roamer who was blowing up random Hansa ships. Or the roamers complaining that a rogue hansa blew up a roamer vessel that was illegally selling stuff to Hansa colonies, and then the roamers procede to cut off the hansa from starship fuel, so that most of humanity would starve to death, and the other half would get blown up by aliens. Or the roamers... Let's just leave it at the fact that the roamers are somehow good guys, while the hansa are the villains.
* The protagonist of [[Cryptonomicon]] gets in an argument with some academics who are clearly meant to come off as hopelessly deluded, politically correct, stuck-up elitists whose work has no basis in reality and is just about furthering trendy bullshit as a career. How? By pointing out, however exaggeratedly, that a white male from a middle-class background is more likely to end up in engineering than someone less privileged. Note that they don't say this is the protagonist's personal fault, just that the system he's in is often unfair. He responds by getting defensive and trying to claim he himself is oppressed by their "attack", using the exact same sort of language. (They're his wife's friends, he's sick of them, and it's hinted he's not sincere, [[Troll|just doing it out of sheer cussedness]].)
* In the fourth ''[[Maximum Ride]]'' novel, Max is furious that, after she and the Flock come to the government's attention, they would ''dare'' to try to put them in a boarding school. A few of their
* ''[[Twilight (novel)|Twilight]]'':
** In the novel ''New Moon'', Bella is annoyed that Jessica won't talk to her, and thinks that Jessica is being petty and evil. This is after Bella has ignored everyone for four months, used Jessica to get Charlie off her back, ditched her shortly into the movie to pine over Edward, and then nearly frightened Jessica to death by walking up to a very dangerous-looking biker in a bad part of town that Jessica clearly wanted to avoid, all because Bella thought it may be the same one that Edward rescued her from before.
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* In the ''[[Inheritance Cycle]]'', [[Big Bad|Galbatorix]] can be seen as this. While later books established him as being thoroughly evil and tyrannical, his depiction in early books left him looking pretty good for many readers. His rise to power (in which he won humanity's superiority over the elves and killed the all-powerful dragon riders) is portrayed as a [[Moral Event Horizon]], and he wants to stomp out the [[Our Orcs Are Different|urgals]], a warlike species whose rite of passage is to find something, ''anything'', and ''kill it''. He's done plenty of unsavoury things and isn't to be praised, but he's made humanity safe and superior, and even his enemies acknowledge that his batshit insanity doesn't touch most of his subjects. And he is the established power, with a clear-cut law, as opposed to the [[Designated Hero|Varden]], who will gladly accept you into their group provided you A.) follow your flawed and suicidal orders to the letter, and B.) be sure to ''always'' shower praise on [[Sociopathic Hero|Eragon]], the [[Can't Argue with Elves|elves]], and your [[Informed Ability|visionary leader]], Nasuda. In the end it isn't so much that the Strawman Has A Point, but that the other side has even ''less'' of a point.
* ''[[Harry Potter]]'':
** When Dolores Umbridge [[Tyrant Takes the Helm|became High Inquisitor of Hogwarts]] and fires the Divination Instructor, [http://harrypotter.wikia.com/wiki/Sybill_Trelawney Prof. Trelawney], for failing to make a prediction on cue, it is supposed to be a [[Kick the Dog]] moment; except that Trelawney is a de facto [[Phony Psychic]]: she relies primarily on the credibility of descending from an actual renowned seer while making fake/vague predictions. The Divination class itself is portrayed as an "Easy A" class, with Harry & Ron making up stories as their "predictions", as opposed to whatever "genuine" methods Trelawney uses for divining the future
*** The scene (and series overall) seems to indicate that Umbridge was not necessarily wrong for ending the Divinations class, but for the heartless, callous, and humiliating way she did it. If Dumbledore had ever decided to get rid of Divinations again, he probably would have found some other posting for Trelawney, since as she said Hogwarts was her home and she had nowhere else to go. Umbridge really doesn't give a frog's eyelash where Trelawney goes or what happens to her, which is her ''real'' crime, not the closure of Divinations class.
** When Cho Chang tries to speak up on behalf of her friend Marietta after Marietta told on the DA and got Hermione's jinx of "SNEAK" pimpled across her face for it, she points out that Marietta's mum works at the Ministry and that it's been really difficult for her. Harry furiously replies, "Ron's dad works for the Ministry too! And in case you hadn't noticed, he hasn't got 'sneak' written across ''his'' face!" It doesn't take a lot of [[Fridge Logic]] to realize just how feeble Harry's retort is. Sure, Ron's dad works at the Ministry, but Ron's dad is also Dumbledore's Man Through and Through, a person who when forced to choose between believing Dumbledore or the Ministry when it was impossible to choose both, chose Dumbledore. Marietta's mum made the opposite choice. If Marietta had a good relationship with her mother, then yes, it would've been really difficult for Marietta in ways that it never was for Ron (and the very fact that Marietta didn't tell on them until 6 months after the DA was formed indicates the decision didn't come easily to her). Furthermore, Ron knew about the jinx, while Marietta didn't. Which leads us to...
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* Fan-hated Sam Bosco on ''[[The Mentalist]]'' actually has a pretty good point when he says Jane has damaged the team by persuading them to resort to illegal tactics repeatedly in the pursuit of justice. Once, when Rigsby and Cho are trying to convince him to let Jane off for [[What the Hell, Hero?|bugging his office]], he asks in return if they'd be willing to do borderline illegal things for him in return. When their immediate answer is yes, he reveals that it was a [[Secret Test of Character]] which they absolutely failed since as cops they shouldn't be so willing to break the law. He's absolutely right.
* ''[[24]]'':
** On at least one occasion, the audience is supposed to support Jack in his hatred of the 'wishy washy liberal human rights lawyer' who (quite correctly) calls Jack on his tendency to illegally hold people with no firm evidence and then torture them into giving him information. In Season 4, Jack even yells "How can you sleep at night!" at a human rights lawyer brought in to defend one of Jack's prisoners who has every right to have an attorney. Season 7 attempts to address this tendency with a few scenes of introspection but ultimately still cheers Jack on as he runs around shooting and kidnapping people. Jack has had torture fail before, and at least on one occasion tortured someone who really didn't know anything, but the writers didn't do more more than have Jack angst instead of showing real consequences of using torture that have been around since Medieval
** In Season 5, Lynn McGill is portrayed as being mentally unstable for accusing almost every single member of CTU of conspiring against him. However, since many of them, from Buchanan down ''is'' seen to be conspiring against McGill, or at least keeping vital information from him, he does have something of a point.
* ''[[All in The Family]]'' regularly used Archie as a comic foil to promote Mike and Gloria's liberal views. However, watched across the gap of almost four decades, Mike and Gloria can sound dreadfully naive, while Archie, notwithstanding the small-minded bigot that he was, actually scores a good number of points off them. This was entirely deliberate on the part of both the writers and Carroll O'Connor, the actor who played Archie. O'Connor was an old-school socialist (he was much further to the left than even Mike) but he disliked naive, idealistic "limousine liberals" (known as "latte liberals" today) almost as much as he loathed conservatives, whom he regarded as selfish, amoral, and manipulative. His Archie was meant to be a ''victim'', not a strawman of any kind. O'Connor played him as an example of how in his opinion conservatism deliberately and callously abused the working classes, leaving them uneducated, barely literate, bitter, angry, and self-destructive - but still willing to vote against their own interests because they've been convinced that the other side is immoral and treasonous.
* ''[[Buffy the Vampire Slayer]]'':
** The Knights of Byzantium in season 5 are pretty harsh: they plan on killing Buffy's younger sister, "The Key", to prevent a Hellgod from another dimension from using her to open a portal back to her dimension that would plunge this world into chaos. As hard as it is to blame Buffy for defending her sister and going against this, the fact remains that in doing so she is risking the fate of six billion people merely to try and save one person. What the Knights are trying to do may be cold-blooded murder but it is not the act of irrational
** The Social Worker from the episode "Gone". We're meant to hate her for making Buffy's life harder and cheer Buffy on when she's invisible and gets revenge, but really, Buffy's in no state to look after a teenage girl with issues, even if she is her sister, especially considering the way she handled that was by making the social worker look like she was insane to her boss. Way to make sure that other children are being looked after, Buffy.
*** Of course, this mostly means she got a taste of her own medicine (don't presume to judge, and all that), and the first point here kind of nukes the second - it's somewhat safer to keep the potential end-of-the-world before the eyes of people specializing in such problems rather than shuffled wherever an overconfident bureaucrat deems acceptable this week.
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*** In addition, Angel eventually comes to realize that he is jeopardizing the safety of all those around him because of his own personal desires trumping reason, and breaks up with Buffy and moves to L.A.. Where he informs his new support crew there that they have his specific permission to kill him in cold blood if that is necessary to prevent Angelus from returning and causing further harm. Even the ''franchise'' agreed with Xander here.
** Ironically, Buffy and Xander end up on the opposite side of the argument when it turns out that Anya, Xander's vengeance demon ex-fiance, is responsible for several deaths. Buffy instantly decides she's a danger and needs to be killed, Xander disagrees because... well, Anya's their friend and they're kind of used to them turning evil by now. In the end, Willow [[Takes a Third Option]].
* On ''[[The Daily Show]]'' March 18, 2010 episode, while making fun of [[Glenn Beck]] making fun of progressives, Jon Stewart [[Lampshade
* A rather unfortunate real life example of this involved ''[[The Daily Show]]'' in 2009. Comic Jason Jones went to Iran and recorded a parody news segment, posing as a stereotypical "ignorant American" convinced that Iran was a tyrannical and evil country. He interviewed Iranian journalist Maziar Bahari, who calmly explained that simply wasn't true. The next day, Bahari was arrested by the Iranian government, imprisoned for six months, beaten, and forced to sign a confession that he was a spy.
* Speaking of faux-news programs on [[Comedy Central]], the humour of ''[[The Colbert Report]]'' is primarily based on this trope - Colbert plays the role of a [[Strawman Political|Straw Conservative]] pundit who unwittingly argues the progressive side, and as such tends to really nail home [[Insane Troll Logic|out there arguments]] when interviewing a guest. Sometimes, however, he'll end up making a really good point if the person he's interviewing isn't fully prepared. Most famously on display during the White House Correspondents' Dinner speech, where Colbert, in character, suggests that the President's dissatisfaction rating is based in 'reality', but it's okay because reality 'has a liberal bias'. Sometimes the strawman Colbert ''does'' make sense, leading some to think he's intended as a parody of the ''left'' and their strawmen, not the right.
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** And of course, none of this deals with the fact that most of the vampires that everyone wants to 'integrate' are probably legally guilty of more than a few felonies. Even if they've never ''killed'' anyone, we can go down a list: Malicious wounding, assault and battery, potentially attempted murder, [[Dr. Strangelove|stealing precious bodily fluids]], etc. Assuming that the 'next generation' of vampires are, in fact, interested in integration, then that's one thing, but it's hard not to see the 'older' vampires as, for the most part, criminals. Not only that, ''all'' of the vampires still have a readily available source for blood that costs nothing and which is easily accessible. Integrating them has all the feeling of letting a fox into the henhouse.
** Furthermore, new, inexperienced vampires tend to get carried away when draining their first humans, killing them even when they aren't trying to. Bill admits he did this "a couple" of times when he first started out, and we see Jessica do this at the end of Season 2. Which makes it highly likely that every single vampire we meet, even the "nicer" ones, are guilty of at least one count of manslaughter.
* [http://www.jabootu.com/beast.htm This review] of the [[Made for TV Movie|made for TV film]] ''The Beast'' points how the characterization in the film suffers badly from this trope. We are meant to cheer for the [[Designated Hero]] Whip Dalton and boo the [[Designated Villain]] Schuyler Graves. Unfortunately, practically the only sign we're given that Graves is evil is when he's criticizing Whip for destroying a raft that Graves was trying to claim as his
* On ''[[ER]]'', Kerry Weaver was seen as a villain for wanting people to follow rules and policy.
* ''[[Doctor Who]]'':
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** Serena Southerlyn was an in-universe version; anytime a defendant had a liberal-leaning defense, she'd jump to their side (i.e. a homeless man claims homelessness made him kill, she'd go "You don't think his lawyer has a point about homelessness being a problem?" She oscillated between just playing the Devil's Advocate and outright missing the point that, in this case, not everyone who is homeless goes off and murders someone.
* ''[[Law and Order SVU]]'':
** For example, there's an episode where a boy has raped a celebrity, allegedly due to the influence of listening to and idolizing a radio shock jock. The shock jock is portrayed as a complete asshole who cares more about freedom of speech than his
*** ... wouldn't there still be a tape of it anyway, even if the broadcast feed was pulled? For that matter, wouldn't everybody else in the studio, such as the broadcast engineer, have also heard the confession? Great, Anvilicious ''and'' poorly written.
** SVU also has plenty of in-universe [[Invoked Trope|invocations]] where the validity of the criminal's ridiculous excuse-du-jour (alcoholism, porn, etc.) gets debated with the members of SVU stopping what they're doing for a minute or two to turn the squad room into an Internet forum of sorts, talking about the issue at hand. Munch was usually the guy in the defendant's corner, and could be counted on to work the issue into one of his various anti-government/anti-corporation rants.
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* In ''[[Carrusel]]'', Jorge tells on Bibi, since Bibi was cheating on a test. The audience is supposed to take Bibi's side, since Jorge is such an abominable character overall. But cheating is wrong. It is unfair for Bibi to cheat and get away with it. And at age 9, nobody will be faulted for saying it loud and immediately instead of waiting till later and telling the teacher in private.
* In ''[[Memphis Beat]]'', Dwight and the other cops are issued smartphones. They prefer their regular phones, and treat them with contempt. Dwight even quips "there's an app for that" just before he uses his to break a window. Problem is, smartphones can actually increase productivity and effectiveness, with proper training, which Dwight and Co. admittedly had not received (yet). Also, Dwight was risking damage to an expensive phone and associated services on the Memphis taxpayers' dime.
* In the unaired 2011 ''[[Wonder Woman]]'' pilot, Diana has dinner with a Senator who expresses concerns about the way she does things - namely, using [[Cold-Blooded Torture]] to get information from criminals, giving the metaphorical finger to [[Reasonable Authority Figure
** It's really difficult to say. Though everything consistently turns up roses for "Wonder Woman" in most of her endeavors, the end of the episode shows her alone and fairly miserable. It's difficult to say whether the characters she opposes were meant to be the strawmen, or if the protagonist ''herself'' was being made into a strawman, who presumably would have been "redeemed" as the series went on.
== Music ==
* "(You Gotta) Fight For Your Right (To Party)":
** By the [[Beastie Boys]], is about as tongue-in-cheek as songs
** Also, to further that point, the next verse is "I'll kick you out of my house if that's the clothes you're gonna wear, I'll kick you out of my home if you don't cut that hair. You're mom busts on in and says 'what's that noise?' Aw mom; you're just jealous! It's the [[Beastie Boys]]." So inadvertantly, they end up removing all doubt that yes; the teen may be a bad boy but a big part of that is that his parents are stuck-up jerks who act like [[Moral Guardians]] but exhibit unhealthy behaviors themselves.
== Newspaper Comics ==
* A September 2009 ''[[Funky Winkerbean]]'' storyline has Susan defending ''Wit''
* Right-wing cartoonist [[wikipedia:Chuck Asay|Chuck Asay]]:
** Every now and then he'll do a comic showcasing "Which situation would you rather have happen?". The one that he tries to show as evil and wrong will unintentionally come off as acceptable to most readers. Or [http://www.creators.com/editorialcartoons/chuck-asay/14769.html take this one], intended to tar [[Global Warming]] as junk science [[You Fail Biology Forever|as bogus as… evolution]].
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* While in [[ECW]], [[Mick Foley]] invoked this during his "anti-hardcore" gimmick, making real points about the fans (who were hungry for more and more risk-taking and violence by the wrestlers that would get to be too much) and still being considered a villain. He'd also invoke this trope when he "quit" as Cactus Jack while in the WWF, citing that he and Funk had been beaten pretty badly and the audience didn't seem to care once they heard uber-popular Steve Austin was in the building and started chanting his name.
* When [[Stephanie McMahon]] turned heel for the first time by betraying her then-face dad and marrying top heel [[Triple H]], she cited earlier in the year when her dad covertly arranged her own kidnapping from the Undertaker (and various other things that made her fear for her life) in an overly complicated [[Xanatos Roulette]] to screw [[Stone Cold Steve Austin]] out of the title. Honestly, it's hard to blame her for that one when you take a step back.
* Sometimes, a heel will hate a face for some pretty solid reasons and still be a heel nonetheless. An example would be when [[Chris Jericho]] had a feud with [[Shawn Michaels]] in 2008. Most everything Jericho said about the fans being hypocrites for supporting HBK (Michaels) were pretty much
* [[Smug Straight Edge]] [[CM Punk]] frequently called out [[Jeff Hardy]] over his past drug use during their 2009 feud. Hardy's lame excuses (like that he's just "living in the moment" or that he's not perfect), combined with the fact that he never admitted fault for his past, caused more than a few fans to turn against the supposed face. Of course, this didn't at all justify Punk's cheating or using cowardly sneak attacks.
* [[CM Punk]]:
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* The Fourtune/EV 2.0 feud in [[TNA]] seems to be based around the fact that Fourtune is pissed they have to make room in the spotlight for all the old ECW guys, most of whom they feel can't wrestle. [[Ric Flair]] stated that until [the ECW guys] survive a plane crash like he did, they can't tell him shit about being "hardcore". Likewise, AJ Styles feels he's helped make TNA what it is through his duty to the company, calling TNA "The House AJ Built" and declaring ECW has no right to [[Spotlight-Stealing Squad|push him and the other originals out of the spotlight]]. They both have a point. What sends this into a combination of [[Viewers are Morons]]/[[Mind Screw]] territory is that the ECW/EV2.0 guys were famously loyal to Paul Heyman because they always came first to him (other guys would come in but he never put them over at the expense of his originals). The audience is supposed to boo Fourtune (the original TNA guys, for the most part) because they're complaining EV2.0 (the invaders) are taking over their show, when their original company (ECW) achieved its success because the original ECW manager was loyal to his originals and never pushed them aside. Furthermore, the ECW guys are supposed to be faces, but they're doing something that the original ECW despised (pushing aside original talent in favor of other, more famous people).
* Another TNA example would be the decision by President Dixie Carter to fire "The Monster" Abyss. She was shown bullying General Manager Eric Bischoff into enforcing her wishes, which is admittedly her right as his superior. The problem here is that she wanted to fire Abyss not because he has been randomly attacking and even attempting to kill high-profile wrestlers (such as his assault on then-TNA Champion [[Rob Van Dam]], forcing Van Dam to vacate the title), but because Abyss took Dixie hostage in front of the entire TNA "Impact Zone" (what TNA calls its [[Fan Community Nicknames|in-studio fan base]]) and reduced her to a sniveling wreck on national television. While firing Abyss is (in [[Kayfabe]], at least) almost certainly a good idea, the point here is that Dixie comes across as an egotistical [[Manipulative Bastard|Manipulative Bitch]] for [[It's All About Me|caring more about looking good on camera than about the safety of her employees]]. Granted, this is a bit of an inversion of the trope since the strawman in this instance does ''not'' have a point (Abyss ''is'' a [[Complete Monster]], after all); it's just that the ''anti''-straw woman indeed has a point, but it's a self-serving and hypocritical one.
* The way [[Batista]] was treated after ''Over the Limit'' was particularly [[Egregious]], not the least because it happened on [[Downer Ending|his very last night with WWE]]. He and [[John Cena]] competed for the WWE Championship in an "I Quit" match that culminated with Batista giving up after Cena threatened to F-U him off the top of a car. Cena
* On the Backlash after Wrestlemania XIV, prior to [[Triple H]]'s match with X-Pac, he and Chyna talked about how much of a [[Ungrateful Bastard]] X-Pac was as he was the reason he got a job in the then-WWF in the first place. While Triple H was a heel at the time and could be dismissed as a [[Jerkass]] trying to justify himself betraying DX, [[Fridge Logic|after thinking]] about ''Chyna'' betraying Triple H for the Corporation and how he was all alone with none of the other DX members coming to his aid, it's no surprise that Triple H decided to sell out his buddies in DX.
* When [[Jerry Lawler]] wrestled [[The Miz]] for the WWE title, the next Raw, [[Michael Cole]] did have a point in that Lawler was partially at fault, although not in the way he intended or the way he said. While the point Cole made ''was'' slightly valid, it really ''wasn't'' Lawler's place to interrupt a new champion's victory celebration, but The Miz is a frankly pathetic heel who more or less cheated to win his title and most faces would have done the same, there was a point in that Lawler technically did screw himself out of the win. While yes, Cole did pull him off the ladder and temporarily stop him from winning, Lawler berated and then assaulted Cole on this for at least a full minute. If Lawler had simply given Cole a well-deserved punch in the mouth and gone back to his business, Lawler would have been champion. Although it was still fun to see Michael Cole get beaten down.
* [[Michael Cole]] gets one during the 3/25/2011 segment when he was [[
{{quote|'''Michael Cole''': "It's not about respect. No one gave me respect for fourteen years."}}
* Ric Flair and Mick Foley's feud was [[Real Life Writes the Plot|based on some comments Flair made about Foley in his autobiography, which in turn were reprisal for some unflattering things that Foley said about Flair in his own book]]. Amazingly, EITHER man could be considered the Strawman here and EITHER could be said to have a good point anyway, depending on your point of view; Flair is right when he says that his criticism of Foley's technical wrestling prowess was sound (but possibly still in the wrong if those comments were rooted in personal malice), but Foley may also have been right when he pointed out that he was justly critical of Flair's treatment of him backstage and Flair's boneheaded booking decisions, not Flair's in-ring legacy (but possibly still in the wrong if he was using those things as an excuse for a petty [[Take That]] against Flair).
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* Moliere's ''[[Don Juan]]'':
** In what might be an [[Invoked Trope]] example of this, the play is ostensibly condemning its evil atheist [[Villain Protagonist]] and most of the other characters remark on how horrible a person Juan is, including his [[Bumbling Sidekick|servant]], Sganarelle. The thing is, Sganarelle is certainly no saint himself besides being too much of a coward to stop Juan, is happy to profit from Juan's evil actions. Thus, both contemporary audiences and modern ones tend to think that instead of validating the views of [[Moral Guardians]], Sganarelle instead serves to make Don Juan's philosophy actually come across as better, and some of Moliere's contemporaries considered the play "diabolical" for this reason.
** Quite a few plays from that time period revolve around what is essentially their version of Shock
* In ''[[Legally Blonde]]'': Callahan points out that Enrique being flamboyant, effeminate, and knowing a lot about shoes does not automatically imply he is gay. He even sings a song about it -- "Gay, or European?" in order to illustrate the difference. Callahan ends up sexually harassing Elle and thus being one of the bad guys. And Enrique did turn out to be gay. But Callahan is right that effeminate does not automatically equal gay.
* In ''[[Porgy and Bess]]'', "It Ain't Necessarily So," which argues that sin is a nonissue since most of the Bible is probably false, is the primary [[Villain Song]] of a cocaine dealer and bootlegger who tries to trick the male lead into incriminating himself for ([[Pay Evil Unto Evil|justifiable]]) murder, forcefeeds cocaine to the formerly addicted female lead, and blackmails her into moving up the coast with him. In the coming decades, it was taken up by numerous jazz and rock singers without a hint of irony.
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* The Jackal from ''[[Far Cry]] 2'', on his interview tapes, sounds a lot more logical than the game seems to want you to think of him as, given the tape descriptions. While many of them are blatantly MORALLY wrong, his logic to justify what he does makes a scary amount of sense. This is especially invoked in the tape asking him why Africa, when he gives the interviewer a small [[Hannibal Lecture]], asking him if there's someone else's home he doesn't care about that he should sell weapons in.
* ''[[Mass Effect]]'':
** Cerberus is a [[Fantastic Racism|human-centric]] organization which employs [[Utopia Justifies the Means|"whatever it takes" methods]] for their vision of a [[Humanity Is Superior|human-dominant galaxy]]. Throughout the entire series, players encounter many Cerberus installations which conduct brutal, horrific experiments that have [[Gone Horribly Wrong]] (or [[Gone Horribly Right]]). However, some of these experiments, such as the "Lazarus Project", leads to the [[Back From the Dead|revival]] of series protagonist, Commander Shepard. Also, other cases of these experiments, such as Project Overlord, the Reaper IFF survey group, and many others, are all done with the intention of stopping a fleet of [[Cosmic Horror
** Even a Paragon Shepard doesn't disagree with Cerberus's specific goal of stopping the Reapers, s/he simply disagrees with the ''brutal'' utilitarianism with which they try to achieve it. Paragon Shepard doesn't even try to deny that the {{spoiler|Collector Base will help in the fight against the Reapers,}} but that to use it would be unethical:
{{quote|'''Shepard''': [[Crowning Moment of Awesome|We'll fight and win without it.]] [[Shut UP, Hannibal|I won't let fear compromise who I am.]]}}
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* This was a frequent occurrence on ''[[Captain Planet and the Planeteers]]'' with the character [[Commander Contrarian|Wheeler]], who was portrayed usually as an arrogant and obnoxious jerk and hence always wrong, despite the fact that he often made sense. In one episode, he was mocked and declared selfish due to his opposition to keeping endangered and injured animals picked up in the groups travels on Hope Island, despite the fact that not taking exotic species out of their natural habitat is a perfectly valid [[Green Aesop]] on its own. This is not the only example. He has been "wrong" to espouse two entirely contradictory positions in two separate episodes, and was somehow wrong both times. See [[The Complainer Is Always Wrong]] for details.
* ''[[Batman: The Animated Series|Batman: TAS]]'':
** Villain Lock-Up uses extreme (for a kids' cartoon) methods to keep the Arkham inmates in line, so bad that Scarecrow escapes simply to get away from him. But his justification, Arkham Asylum's "[[Cardboard Prison|revolving door]]", is perfectly sound. It helps that the more monstrous inmates like [[The Joker]] were conspicuously absent, so more sympathetic ones like Harley Quinn and Ventriloquist could plead their case. And as Scarecrow shows, his improved security system isn't a hundred percent
** The Penguin from the episode "The Ultimate Thrill" who, in the transition to ''[[Batman: The Animated Series|The New Batman Adventures]]'', had become a [[Villain with Good Publicity]]. When Batman busts into his apartment to interrogate him about Roxy Rocket, he sarcastically asks to see Batman's search warrant before opening a can of submachine-gun fire on Batman. Considering that Batman is a vigilante operating outside of the constraints of the law, it was a rare moment in which the cartoon pointed out that he had no legal authority to bust The Penguin for anything and killing Batman on his property would have been justifiable under the Castle Doctrine.
* In ''[[My Little Pony: Friendship Is Magic|My Little Pony Friendship Is Magic]]'':
** A number of people sided with Twilight Sparkle's outlook in "Feeling Pinkie Keen," as opposed to the lesson "sometimes it's better to just have faith" Pinkie Pie was supposed to teach. The intended lesson was either "you shouldn't dismiss things you can't readily explain," or possibly "accept that your understanding will always have limits." Sadly, both are very difficult to convey gracefully, especially if you don't want them to come off as [[Family-Unfriendly Aesop|family unfriendly.]]
** The Canterlot Elite in "Sweet and Elite" are depicted as smug elitists for treating the ponies from Ponyville as hicks. Consider though that a bunch of Ponyvillians trashed the highest profile social function in Equestria, and proceeded the trash the second highest social function, one wonders if the reputation for being boorish hicks is actually somewhat deserved.
** In "The Super Speedy Cyder Squeezy 5000," Flim and Flam were technically correct in their original claim; that their machine could outproduce the efforts of the Apple family ''alone'', and although they agreed to change the conditions and then lost because they got cocky, Applejack ends the episode getting equally cocky about a pretty hollow
*** ''Or'' Applejack could just hire her five
*** In real life, the commonest solution to this very same problem faced by farms (harvest time requires extra labor that is not needed the rest of the year) is... to hire casual day labor as needed to make up the shortfall. Truth In Television.
* In ''[[Justice League]]'':
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== Other ==
* In ''[[The Secret Life of Dolls]]'':
** [[Van Helsing|Anna]] is persistently paranoid and accusative of Edward, which the author condemns her for. However? [[Twilight (novel)|Edward]] Tallen ''is'' a dangerous, antisocial [[It Makes Sense in Context|dollpire]]
** This was darkly foreshadowed, when {{spoiler|Anna insists that the reason she wants to kill Edward is that killing vampires is what her family does. Cleolinda says "Yeah, well vampires are supposed to eat people and he's not doing that!"}}
* A somewhat famous example from Computer Science: "[[wikipedia:Worse is better|Worse is Better]]",<ref>The statement, it should be noted, is (intentionally) misleading (and explicitly noted to be so); "Worse" in this case refers to an incomplete but sufficient implementation right now, rather than a perfect implementation years from now. Further, there is a point where less functionality ("worse") is a preferable option ("better") in terms of practicality and usability. Software that is limited, but simple to use, may be more appealing to the user and market than software that is more comprehensive, but harder to use.</ref>
* Most [[Robot War]] stories want us to sympathize with the humans. But in most every case, the humans started it, and the robots are defending themselves, if being extreme about it.
* In almost any given story where the hero argues that [[If You Kill Him You Will Be Just Like Him]], the point of the opposing
* [[Conversational Troping|Conversed]] in a criticism of the [[Straw Feminist]] trope by [[Feminist Frequency]]. Anita Sarkeesian noted that while most such characters are portrayed as being always wrong, many of the actual points they made are perfectly valid, and points out that many of the writers of such characters seem to confuse real feminism with "female supremacy".
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