Topic on User talk:NoxiousSludge

...delete Ghetsis as a CM anywhere on this Wiki, especially without having consulted with me first. He got cut on TV Tropes, he got cut on Villain's Wiki, but I am NOT going to allow him to be cut from ATT - not when he hits off every criteria given by THIS WIKI'S definition of the trope. Please do remember that THIS. IS. NOT. TV TROPES. We do NOT need to define the trope by their standards, by a baseline heinousness of ACTIONS - that just makes it Moral Event Horizon in character form rather than an actual character trope. The page states clearly "This trope isn't just about what the character does, but about what the character is. Their monstrous characters are reflected in their heinous deeds, which is what puts them a cut above the regular villains. And whatever their position, a Complete Monster has to go the full mile and meet all criteria: they are the worst they can possibly be in their role, in the space and scale they occupy." That's why Ghetsis still counts.

Is Ghetsis heinous by both the standards of his installment's story and the franchise as a whole? I'd say yes. Is he ever truly presented in any positive way? No he's not. Is his terribleness played seriously in spite of the usual light tone? Yes. Do other characters show fear, hate, and revulsion of him? Yes they do. Does he have a good Freudian Excuse? He has none whatsoever. Is he devoid of positive features and altruistic qualities? Yes. Does he have no regret for his crimes? Yes. Is he redeemed or has the possibility of redemption? Both games suggest he's irredeemable. And are the results of his offscreen villainy clear? I'd say very much so. That's it: that's every single detail of THIS WIKI's criteria for passing the trope, and Ghetsis hits them all. He qualifies as a Complete Monster, period.

If we're to cut Ghetsis, then I'm going to cut The Joker and other criminal villains like him from the DC comics section because they share a universe with the likes of Darkseid, Brainiac, the Anti Monitor, Superboy Prime, Lord Aratsu, Trigon, Promethues, and several others who've committed more widespread heinous atrocities.

If you'll really take it that badly, then your husbando can stay up.

"Your husbando?" You even get what that even means? What's with the sudden rude and insulting attitude you've been displaying on this issue? I didn't treat you this badly when you argued about Zant, did I?

If I came off as hostile then I apologize, but the application of TV Tropes standards to ATT in an attempt to discredit a rather big example of a candidate who passed the criteria test for the trope as defined by ATT really kind of appalls me. I've been working to ensure that this trope avoids the problems it ran into at TV Tropes that led to it's decay into anal restrictiveness, and I thought you were too, which is why I guess I'm taken aback at your sudden change of attitude towards this issue.

Alright people, let's not get pissy over this.

Basically, the issue seems to be "is this guy an unreedamble asshole and is there no suggestion that could ever change or not?". If so, he stays in CM land. If not, we can place him in YMMV territory.

Also Noxious, no need to be snide, this isn't worth being rude to each other over, and Doc, I admire your passion on this, but relax, this isn't something to crusade over.

In fact, based on my reading of his actions, I'm strongly of the belief he should remain in CM land, so Noxious, I advise either gathering a consensus to challenge that or let the matter rest.

I don't mean to be pissy or overly passionate here: things like this just give me some anxiety issues and severe irritation, especially since it's one of the things I'd hoped to avoid here on ATT, which is the reason we have different criteria for who and what does pass for this trope.

The issue we're having is actually "does this guy belong on a trope along with villains who've done more heinous deeds, especially when some other villains who've done more heinous deeds did NOT pass the trope yet he did?" Why I think this issue is irrelevant is that the trope as defined by ATT is not merely about villains who've committed acts of large-scale widespread heinousness, or who meet a baseline of heinousness by objective standards. It's about villains who hit off the criteria given in the very definition. Ghetsis hits them off, therefore he's a keeper.

I could theoretically write up an entire effort post about why Ghetsis qualifies but don't think I should do that now. But Ghetsis' status wasn't in dispute until Noxious decided he wasn't so heinous all of a sudden. However, the majority of the fanbase still views him as a CM and he fills this wiki's requirement for being a CM on the main trope page. As for you, Geth, why do you hold the belief that he should remain? Definitely not disputing it since I feel the same way, but what about him do you find so heinous? (For me, it's because he's an entitled and power-hungry sociopath, an exploiter, a torturer, a terrorist, an aspiring dictator, an attempted murderer, and an abuser of children, creatures, and people in general, on top of that having no redeeming features.)

Well, you outlined most of the reasons I had, but for me, the clincher is: does he ever feel regret, did he ever have a chance to step back from the Moral Event Horizon, or does he attempt to show any ounce of decency?

The answer seems to be a resounding no, so I'd say this guy is as much a monster as you can be.

Also, I understand, I have a stress condition I take regular medication for, but trust me, don't get yourself worked up if you have an anxiety condition, the aftereffects suck.

I know. Cyrus got redeemed in two manga, and while Lysandre rejected the chance to step back from his evil path in the end, he showed he felt regret that he had to take measures that would eliminate innocent Pokemon. By contrast the closest expression of "regret" Ghetsis showed was a "look at what you've made me do!" to N, the victim of his child abuse, while blaming him for the current devastation in Unova that he himself was directly causing because, according to Ghetsis, it would have been prevented had N simply stayed his obedient pawn. He has no true remorse for how terrible he is and showcased this twice over.

Don't worry, I try not to, especially over matters relating to fiction.