Topic on User talk:DocColress

Seeing how today marks the announcement of the final batch of Smash Bros DLC, I think it's relevant to discuss a character that I've had on my mind for a while. Are you familiar with Super Smash Bros Brawl and it's story mode, the Subspace Emissary? Because I would like to see what you think about the Subspace Emissary's antagonist: Tabuu.

He's the story mode's true villain, and is an odd spectral blue humanoid figure. Tabuu lives in a dimension called Subspace that he plans to suck the World of Trophies (Basically, every playable character is a living trophy/action figure kind of thing) into it. Since he can't leave Subspace himself, he uses an army of bizarre creatures (as well as a few villains: Bowser and Ganondorf) to do his bidding. He's also forcing an entire species of friendly robots (R.O.B's, like that robotic NES controller) to swear loyalty to him on threat of annihilating them all, and uses them to detonate special bombs he had created called Subspace Bombs which consume all the land around them up to a certain radius and cast it into subspace, which turns anything living that they catch into motionless trophies (essentially killing those they consume, though they can be restored back to normal). For extra cruelty points, the bombs are designed so the R.O.B's HAVE to remain attached to the bomb until it detonates, which wipes them out along with everything else. Their leader, who is portrayed as being the Subspace Army's figurehead leader is shown to be deeply saddened at the senseless sacrifices made by his subjects, and evnetually turns on Tabuu once the game's heroes infiltrate the Subspace Army's headquarters. Unfortunately, ALL the R.O.B's are ordered to detonate all the bombs in the facility and are unable to be stopped, and upon detonation they destroy the R.O.B's home and drive the race into extinction, with the Ancient Minister being the sole survivor of the group.

All in all, he's a nasty guy, though there's one big problem: the story itself is one told without words, and since no one talks and Tabuu himself only shows up a few times during the endgame, it's hard to get a good read on him. What we DO know is that he's a pitiless, ruthless guy through supplementary materials, though I'm not sure if he fits the bill as a Complete Monster, or if he's a Generic Doomsday Villain. Plus, the scene where all the R.O.B's are ordered to kill themselves via mass detonation was directly done by Ganondorf, and I don't exactly remember if he did it of his own volition, or if he was ordered to give the order by Tabuu (Who was using the character Master Hand as a puppet to give his orders in return. It's kinda complicated).

So what are your thoughts? Is he a keeper, or no?

I remember playing that and don't really think Tabuu was quite bad enough to qualify. He'd be YMMV at best.

Really? I could understand if you had GDV-related hangups, but enslaving a peaceful race, forcing said race's leader to systematically kill his own people, and twisting a world into becoming a part of your hellish dimension with the added bonus of effectively killing all life in said world are all bad enough to qualify in my book.

But he doesn't really have much of a character or a sufficient amount time on screen. If he did, even if still a silent role, he'd likely qualify in the same vein as the Purple Guy/Springtrap, but as he is he's more GDV than CM, though again, I think he's worthy enough to get a YMMV example.

Turns out he's already listed under Smash Bros YMMV, so I guess that takes care of itself.

This may sound like it's coming out of nowhere by the way, but are you familiar with Steven Universe? I'm not proposing anyone (yet, though I DO have my eye on a certain character set to appear on the near future), I'm just wondering.

I think Yellow Diamond is the one everyone's keeping their eye out for?

Yeah, assuming she WAS the one who okayed a lot of the nastier things conducted by the Homeworld (Their Fusion Experiments, the Cluster). Even if it's not her, I have this gut feeling that at least one character is going to qualify (Not Jasper, who I made a note for in Cartoon networks list of non-examples. I said that she may count in the future, but even I'm seriously doubting that) since the Gem Homeworld sounds like a nasty place.

But anyway, I assume you're familiar with it? It's quite the fun, cute little show that I find to be very well written. But if it's not your thing, I understand, especially since the infamously hostile fanbase has done a lot to make a bad name for itself.

I've watched it occasionally, though not followed it too much. The fandumb is a big turn-off as well.

Speaking as a guy with little patience for the antics of the "Social Justice Warrior" crowd, I learned to live with the crazies the show attracts. Say what you will about Bronies, but I don't remember hearing about any of them driving an artist to nearly comitting suicide. :I

Alright, enough of the negative stuff. Is everything holding well on your end? I hope you're at least having a good holiday season!

Oh yeah. I enjoy MLP more despite the Bronies, so I try to do the same with the SU fandom but it's hard sometimes.

Yes, I am! ^_^

Ho ho ho, merry Christmas, as good old Saint Nick would say! I hope everything's going well for you!

I just got back from a brief visit to my cousin's house, where I was able to play through most of Oracle of Ages in order to form an opinion on Veran, who was discussed a while ago. The game is fun (if a bit annoyingly vague in regards to what you should do at times), and I got over to where you have to help a Fairy Queen un-poison the ocean before I have to leave.

And from what I've seen, Veran is an easy qualifier: enslaving a lot of men and working them to death through continuous back-breaking labor in order to construct a tower, freezing tons of innocent sentient animals (and a kid) into statues, causing a city to be destroyed in a volcanic eruption, poisoning an ocean which is shown to have fatal consequences down the road, uses Nayru as a human shield during her brief "boss" fight, and given some bits of dialogue she has, it's even implied she collects people that she freezes into statue form... honestly, I can't see how she wouldn't qualify, as she sticks up quite well with the other examples currently listed on the Zelda page. I'm just surprised that she didn't ultimately qualify over at TV Tropes, though she may have gone over better if it wasn't for the guy who proposed her...

Aaaaaanyway, yeah. If you don't mind, I'm gonna get her written-up in a bit, I'd just like your input before doing so. Oh yeah, and I haven't played Seasons yet, though I plan on doing so when I'm done with Ages. Is that game's villain General Onox worth keeping an eye on?

I think Veran's a qualifier in the game and manga adaptation, but Onox is definitely just a generic baddie in the game - what he brings about is horrific but the character himself is a vague, under-developed Orcus on His Throne type until the final battle. His manga incarnation might qualify but I'm forgetting the exact details on him.

I got Veran written up! I have to say, it's disappointing that Onox sounds pretty bland as a person, he has a pretty cool design (Same with Veran, who I appreciate for getting screentime and more of a personality) at the very least.

So with that, I think that Zelda doesn't have any potential contenders left, at least for the time being. Assuming of course that I'm missing out on someone from Hyrule Warriors, that is (I have yet to play that one). Zelda U and other titles could change it of course, but I think what we have is pretty good at the moment provided that the various Manga adaptations didn't upgrade any existing villains into being worse than their game selves.

Oh wait, I forgot: we DO have a qualifier: the development team behind the CD-I games! Of course, you could argue that in spite of the horrible gameplay, Faces of Evil and Wand of Gamelon being unintentionally hilarious could count as redeeming qualities, but those went out the window once they made Zelda's Adventure, which was just terribad all around...

I'm joking please don't hurt me

I know. I loved his design for most of the game, and evenmoreso he's scary ass "true form" at the end. I'll have to see if the manga dedicated some more time to his character, 'cause with more of that, a guy whose plan threatens to drag an entire land and it's population into the underworld could likely qualify.

Hyrule Warriors has no candidates - the primary antagonist, Cia, is something of a joke who's infatuated with Link and is ultimately a pawn of Ganon who sees the error of her ways, and while Ganon, Zant, and Ghirahim are as evil as ever in terms of characters, they don't get to do a whole lot compared to their other game appearances.

I dunno, even the CD-I games did some pretty downright unforgivable things, such as spoiling Ganon's good name by making him a copy of Disney's Pete. xD

Don't know about him being a Pete clone, but CD-I Ganon was still a rather sillily written character.

By the way, I don't know if you're keeping up with One Piece, but it looks like the current story arc is going to have yet another Complete Monster in the form of its villain Jack. The guy's a sadistic, torture-loving, unreasonably violent brute who actively sneers at the thought of peaceful resolutions to conflicts. So far he has annihilated most of an island nation, blew up a city with a chemical weapon of Caesar Clown's out of annoyance towards the battle he was in taking too long for his liking, and tortured people through lopping off limbs. And keep in mind, this is before we even see him in the present day. And let's not forget to mention that he has the first bounty at around 1,000,000,000 shown in the series, which is likely for a damn good reason. Don't know if it's an accurate comparison, but I consider this guy to be One Piece's equivalent to Gregor Clegane.

Oh yeah, and he just so happens to be Kaido's right hand guy. Almost makes me scared to see what all Kaido will do once he takes up proper Big Bad status. Either way, I'm a bit impressed with Oda: pre-timeskip we had villains see-saw between asshole bullies like Morgan, Wapol, and Krieg to scumbags like Arlong and Spandam, but so far the post-timeskip arcs seem to be Oda trying to outdo himself in making his antagonists purely evil.

I suspect Kaido and Jack will end up as qualifiers too, but we can't be 100% certain until their arc has either concluded or gone on long enough to solidify their status.

Oh I wasn't going to propose Jack yet, after all he could have a softer side to him we haven't seen yet. A fondness for puppies and Michael Bolton's more tender love songs, perhaps... XD

But nah, I was just noting that he's definitely someone worth keeping an eye on, considering his love for pure, animalistic brutality and the fact that he already has a few notable atrocities under his belt, same for his boss, for that matter.

Out of curiosity, are you fond of One Piece? I like it a lot myself mainly for the unique art style, gripping storyline, and awesomely diverse and memorable cast of characters, but have allowed myself to behind in recent times. Out of the original "Big Three" of Naruto, Bleach, and this series, I think it's the only one of the bunch that has stayed genuinely good (If ridiculously long) its entire run.

I definitely think One Piece is the best out of it, Bleach, and Naruto, and I loved it in it's earlier arcs, but from the CP9 Saga and onward I lost my investment in it because, as you said, it's overly-long even when it oughtn't need to be. So now it' just alright for me - don't love it, but don't dislike it either.

'Tis the danger of becoming fond of an incredibly long series!

But anyway, I'm curious: have you seen any of the series' movies? I'm curious as to if they have any villains that could serve as potential candidates. I HAVE seen the sixth myself, and would like to propose one of its villains. However, I'm not sure if it will go over well and want to ask in advance if you're at least familiar with that movie.

I don't think TV Tropes has even taken any notice of the movie villains, but which one do you think might be a contender, or at least a YMMV example?

Lily Carnation, this evil, eldritch plant demon thing (It's never really explained what it truly is) that works alongside the movie's more active villain Baron Omatsuri. Together, they might just be among the most vile villains in the franchise, but the Baron himself has a few mitigating features that prevent him from qualifying. LC might, it might not, that's why I want to discuss it.

Basically, it's this plant monster that offered to bring back Baron Omatsuri's dead crew in the form of living plants affected by hallucinations as long as the baron delivers it power pirates to feast on. In order to preserve his memory of his fallen comrades, the baron has delivered it dozens of crews and eliminated most of them as offerings to sate the monster's appetite. It doesn't do a lot of active villainy (That's the baron's job as the Carnation is mostly immobile), but this thing is responsible for everything that went wrong during the movie's plot. If it helps, it's constantly attached to the Baron's shoulder in the form of a tiny, adorable avatar (until it reveals its true monster form during the climax) and supplies him with the arrows he uses to hunt down its prey (and even giggles maniacally as it helps him aim when they attack Robin). Plus, there's how it eats its prey: it slowly absorbs them in its huge true body's stalk and slowly kills them. Thankfully most of the Strawhats that are absorbed appear to be unconcious except Zoro, who seems fully aware of his predicament and appears to be wordlessly screaming. It also tries to kill a friendly pirate itself in its monster form.

I really, really want it to count, but there are two issues that may get in its way. First off, it's not really conversational. it has a clear personality: it acts cute, cheerful, and somewhat absent minded when it's putting up a facade, but downright creepy and maniacal when it and the Baron's true colors are revealed. It's just not the talkative type.

Plus, I'm a bit concerned that Omatsuri may outclass it in heinousness since he's the guy physically doing evil things. Since he's been driven mad by his crew being slaughtered, he wants other pirates to feel as lonely and hopeless as he is by luring pirates to his resort island, driving various crews apart through manipulation and sowing distrust between them, and killing them one by one, only to leave a broken final survivor that he allows to sink into despair before also killing. He's presented as so loathsome, that Luffy flat out kills him with his bare hands and even deals the killing blow in a way that is drawn similarly to the punch he used to cave in Saint Charloss's head in the anime (Basically, the colors are drained out and leave a demented mess of black and white). If it wasn't for the fact that the Baron loves his missing crew and deeply misses them, I'd propose him in a heartbeat.

So what are your thoughts? Does the Lily Carnation's eldritch nature and status as being more of a Bigger Bad hurt its chances? Or do you view it as a true example?

There's another factor that you glanced over but sort of pointed out right at the start - "it's never really explained what it truly is." For all we know, it's in Lily's very nature to nourish itself with the powers that these pirates' possess, and so it's doing what it's doing in order to live and survive the only way it knows how. That would mean it doesn't have the choice to try not eating powerful people, putting it in a Made of Evil territory. So not only does it fail the heinous standard compared to the baron, but it fails moral agency and probable excuse factors as well. So as repellent as it might be, I don't think it counts by the standards or criteria of the trope. Sorry. It and the Baron do seem pretty interesting, so I am glad you brought them to my attention.

No need to apologize, I'm not losing any sleep over Lily failing to qualify.

And the movie is pretty cool! It has a weird, beautiful, almost Studio Ghibliesque feel at the beginning when everything's all happy and fun, but it spirals into truly creepy territory and feels more like a straight-up horror film by the end.

One last thing regarding One Piece: I feel so ashamed for admitting this, but years back I was convinced that Morgan, Don Krieg, and Wapol were complete monsters. I'm glad I never came around to adding them and making an ass of myself, but yeah. Don't know why, but I suppose I ought to let this shameful confession out in the open. ._.

Damn, now I want to see it...

Morgan comes the closest to the trope and is disqualified more due to narrative issues than character issues (he's not taken as a super serious menace by the narrative and he's eclipsed in heinousness by later villains, some like Kuro who operate with lesser resources). But yeah, Don Krieg and Wapol never really even approached this trope's territory compared to all the worse villains in this series.

I think for those two, it was me letting their scummy behavior override my common sense. Because let's face it, Oda does a damn good job at making his villains people you want to hate. Spandam in particular is one of very few villains I've seen whose defeat made me cheer out loud due to how horrible of a human being he was.

Agreed. Horrid behavior doesn't always make a villain belong in a category for being the worst of the worst, especially if they lack the rap sheet and extra qualifying factors. Spandam, though, I'm still unsure why he got voted down on TV Tropes. That he could cause so much damage on many levels and be so thoroughly horrible a person despite being a "small potatoes" weakling is an indicator that he IS among the worst there is in the One Piece universe.

It may be because the Buster Call was an accident, though I thought a character could still qualify if they're proud with accidentally causing a ton of destruction. Spandam sure as hell had no problem throwing all his guys to the wolves after his big screwup, though that seems to be yet another case of the site's users being really inconsistent with criteria. Ah well.

Speaking of which, apparently Spandam has shown up again, his back fully restored and now serving under his former subordinate Lucci. Hopefully he runs into Robin again, and this time she does a more "thorough" job with him if you get my meaning.

Oh, I sure hope so!

I don't know if you care, but as of the latest episodes, I think I made the right call on keeping an eye out for Uellow Diamond. She made her first appearance and here's what we know so far:

She doesn't give a rats ass about the Gems who serve under her and reacts with casual indifference to the report of a loyal soldier's supposed death, holds organic life in contempt, has an awful temper to the point to where she immediately tries to murder a minion of hers for insulting her, and was confirmed to have overseen the creation of the Cluster. Basically, she had an enormous creature created by melding tons of dead Gems together, which revived them and leaves them in a state of constant agony, and plans to use it to destroy the Earth, and actively ignores the option to keep the planet around to use for resources purely out of spite towards the late leader of the Crystal Gems. God damn.

Of course, it's far too early to propose her yet (and given the show's awful hiatus-addled schedule, we're likely to wait a looooooong time), but she's already shaping up to be one of THE most evil characters I've seen in western cartoons just for the Cluster's creation alone. Sorry if this was a waste of time or something.

If Yellow Diamond truly is the root of all evil in this show and showcases no redeeming qualities, than she'll definitely be a keeper.