Umineko: When They Cry/WMG/Colored Text: Difference between revisions

** {{<span style="color|:red|;">It is forbidden to use the red text to directly verify the existence of something supernatural. At best, the phrases "God exists." and "God doesn't exist." are both impossible to say in red.}}</span>

** {{<span style="color|:red| ;">It is forbidden to use red text to directly verify the existence of something supernatural in Beatrices game according to its rules.}}</span> Actually {{<span style="color|:red| ;">it is normally possible to use red text to deny supernatural.}}</span> Erika used red to falsify Maria's claim of Beatrice using magic to make candy in EP6 and Bernkastel used it to deny Beatrices existance in EP5.

* Trick Beato into self-destructing by reciting {{<span style="color|:red|;">"This statement is false."}}</span>

** {{<span style="color|:blue|;">Every statement includes an implicit assertion of its own truth. Thus, "This statement is false." is equivilentequivalent to "This statement is true and this statement is false." The second statement is a contradiction and thus false. The second statesmentstatement and the first statmentstatement are eqivilentequivalent. Thus, the phrase "This statement is false." will simply be treated as a lie, Beato will be unable to say it in red, but will suffer no further consequences}}</span>

* Tell the player {{<span style="color|:red|;">"You just lost the game"}}</span> in the very last game. Epic [[Mind Screw]] ensues.

== Things to do with {{<span style="color|:gold|;">gold text}}</span>. ==

* Kill the <s><span {{style="color|:red|;">[[House of Leaves|Minotaur]]}}</span></s>

* "<s>Dine's</s> {{<span style="color|:gold|;">Knox's rules do not apply.}}</span> In other words, this is not a Mystery."

== <span {{style="color|:green|;">Green Text is Fourth Wall Truth.}}</span> ==

In The Stake's Valentine's Day; Ronove is commenting on how Angel's Horn or Devil's Horn is perfect on Chocolates; when suddenly a [[Do Not Try This At Home]] disclaimer appears in {{<span style="color|:green|;">green}}</span> comments on how these things are poisonous. Ronove nonchalantly responds to...um...nobody that well, yeah, to ''humans'', not demons; very well, they'll skip those ingredients.

* However, the {{<span style="color|:green|;">Green Text}}</span> will doubtfully be used in story. Watch me be proven wrong, it'll be great.

* Adding to that, the {{<span style="color|:green|;">Grimoire}}</span> that's added to the TIPS in the Witch Hunt translations use {{<span style="color|:green|;">Green Text}}</span> to explain translation notes of interest and clarifications. Does that fall under Fourth Wall Truth, or has Ryu07 been royally cornered? Either way, it'll be fucking epic.

** {{<span style="color|:green|;">Implying green text means anything}}</span>

**** You misunderstood. "Grimore" is how the [[Fan Translation|Witch-Hunt]] call the the part of the menu they explain their translation. In their translation, every time you see the {{<span style="color|:green|;">green text}}</span> you are to go to the 'grimore'(one page after 'TIPS") to read what the translators had to say about it. Therefore, there, the {{<span style="color|:green|;">green text}}</span> ''is'' [[Breaking the Fourth Wall|aimed to the reader]]. Since it was already this way before Ryuukishi first use it, it could be, indeed, an [[Ascended Fanon]] if this [[WMG]] is correct.

** The statement is "{{<span style="color|:gold|;">I guarantee that this corpse is Ushiromiya Kinzo's corpse!}}</span>" a promise from the master of that world that that is true, in the same way that the author promises that a mystery is solvable along the same vein of the conversation above.

* This also fits with the comment about it being both superior and inferior, on par with the red truth, premise of the story could be {{<span style="color|:gold|;">"Secret doors exist"}}</span>, it is absolute above the red truth as the premise is secret doors exist, yet even if "Secret doors exist" the red truth can still trump that with the Red {{<span style="color|:red|;">No Secret doors exist in this room"}}</span>, it falls in line with the premise that "Secret doors exist", yet it overrides the premise to mean "{{<span style="color|:gold|;">Secret doors exist,}}</span> {{<span style="color|:red|;">outside of this room"}}</span>

** {{<span style="color|:gold|;">The gold truth is used to make any true statement using the rules of Beato's game as a basis for deduction.}}</span>

This is an extension of the idea that there are two people named Ushironomiya Battler due to the events in EP 4. {{<span style="color|:red|;">Any Red Truth which uses the name 'Battler' can refer to anyone by the name of Battler.}</span>} {{<span style="color|:blue|;">As shown by EP 4 there is at least one other person who was named Battler, the alive or dead status does not matter, the important point is that this person existed. Thus any red text using the name 'Battler' could refer to this other Battler, this allows for such possibilities as Battler being the murderer.}}</span>

* {{<span style="color|:red|;">Knox's 1st! It is forbidden for the culprit to be anyone not mentioned in the early part of the story! A person that was not first introduced in}}</span> {{<span style="color|:blue|;">the first game}}</span> {{<span style="color|:red|;">cannot be named as the culprit! Furthermore, it has been stated in Red that "Battler-kun is not the culprit. Battler-kun didn't kill anyone. This can be said of all games."}}</span> {{<span style="color|:blue|;">Because it was stated in Red that the 'Battler' seen in all games so far, including the meta-world Battler, is not the culprit, he is ruled out until we receive a statement in Gold that Virgilia was not referring to the 'Battler' that was in every game plus meta-Battler. Furthermore, because the second 'Battler' was not introduced in EP1, it is impossible for him to be the culprit due to Knox's 1st!}}</span> I acknowledge the possibility that Knox's Decalogue does not apply to any of the games, {{<span style="color|:red|;">but the possibility that Knox's Decalogue '''DOES'does'' apply to the games still stands until disproven in Gold by the Game Master!}}</span> {{<span style="color|:red|;">Even if it is stated in Red, it will not work unless the Game Master states it in Gold!}}</span>

** {{<span style="color|:blue|;">This also means that there can be multiple Battlers as long as none of them is the culprit, so Knox's 1st does not apply. That means that the term 'Battler', and anything said about 'Battler', can be applied to any individual named 'Battler'.}}</span> also...{{ <span style="color|:red|;">I can't trust Knox's Decalogue if it arbitrarily skips the whole 'Chinaman' rule...}}</span>

It has to do with those damn [[From a Certain Point of View|certain points of view]], and the possibility that {{<span style="color|:blue|;">you might not know what you were saying in red}}</span>.

To explain that last part (and this is not a WMG, it is a completely hypothetical situation intended only to clarify; please do not attempt to prove or disprove it), assume that Maria unknowingly has an alternate personality called "Beatrice the Golden", who may or may not be based on an actual person. Maria kills someone in her "Beatrice" personality then reverts to her "Maria" persona, and when confronted over it, says {{<span style="color|:red|;">"Maria did not do this. Beatrice did."}}</span> What Maria meant when she said that is "This murder was committed by a person named Beatrice, who is completely distinct from Maria Ushiromiya." {{<span style="color|:blue|;">If the Red Truth cared what she meant, she would not be able to say this, as it would be false. However, she can say it}}</span>, because the [[Exact Words]] can be interpreted as "This murder was committed by 'Beatrice', who is not 'Maria' (note the quotes!)."

So what does this have to do with the supernatural? Consider the statement {{<span style="color|:red|;">"Witches and sorcerers exist."}}</span> There are multiple definitions of the word "witch", {{<span style="color|:blue|;">any of which may be applied to this statement, regardless of what the speaker intended to say}}</span>:

As you can see, this produces a few possible interpretations. For instance, "{{<span style="color|:red|;">At least one member of the Ushiromiya family is a witch}}</span>" could mean:

# {{<span style="color|:blue|;">At least one Ushiromiya can cast spells.}}</span>

# {{<span style="color|:blue|;">At least one Ushiromiya is deluding themselves into thinking they can do magic.}}</span>

# {{<span style="color|:red|;">At least one Ushiromiya believes in magic and tries to use it.}}</span> <span {{style="color|:blue|;">Whether they actually can or not is irrelevant.}}</span>

# {{<span style="color|:red|;">At least one of the Ushiromiya women is a bit bitchy.}}</span> (Respondent/Editor: Three guesses who THAT is)

# {{<span style="color|:blue|;">At least one member of the Ushiromiya family practices Wicca.}}</span>

Anti-Fantasy stances are not exempt from this either. "{{<span style="color|:red|;">Supernatural elements are forbidden}}</span>" could mean:

# {{<span style="color|:blue|;">This universe operates according to all known scientific laws. Magic therefore does not exist except as parlor tricks and delusions.}}</span>

# {{<span style="color|:blue|;">This universe operates according to known and unknown natural laws. If magic exists, it follows those laws and cannot be strictly called a "supernatural element".}}</span>

# {{<span style="color|:blue|;">There is an organization attempting to exterminate the supernatural. That organization's rules forbid supernatural elements.}}</span>

* This can count as a WMG regarding the rules for using the Red Truth. As for the info itself, I love it, though, I felt a few added touches were necessary. Hope you don't mind.<ref>{{<span style="color|:gold|;">This one will be hereafter referred to as either the Respondent, or as the Editor, within this WMG.}}</span></ref>

* {{<span style="color|:red|;">I respectfully disagree with the OP. At first I thought this WMG was pure, unbridled genius,}}</span> <span {{style="color|:blue|;">but the principle that the red text didn't take the actual meaning of the speaker into account doesn't make sense.}}</span>

Forgive me if I'm wrong, but {{<span style="color|:red|;">from what I remember, Battler couldn't say "Ushiromiya Asumu is my mother!" in the red text.}}</span> {{<span style="color|:blue| ;">If your theory is correct, and the red text doesn't take into account what Battler meant,}}</span> {{<span style="color|:red|;">which was "Ushiromiya Asumu gave birth to me,"}}</span> {{<span style="color|:blue| ;">his words could've literally meant "Ushiromiya Asumu raised me," "Ushiromiya Asumu gave birth to me," and/or "Spiritually, I consider Ushiromiya Asumu to be my maternal figure."}}</span> {{<span style="color|:red| ;">Asumu did, in fact, raise Battler, at least for a part of his life,}}</span> {{<span style="color|:blue|;">so, if your theory was true, he'd be able to say those words. And, because he couldn't, if your red text theory was true, it couldn't mean anything I said above. However,}}</span> {{<span style="color|:red|;">one of the interpretations listed above was most certainly true,}}</span> and so therefore {{<span style="color|:blue| ;">the theory is false.}}</span><ref> Sorry for the wording. I'm kind of out of it, and I tried to make it coherent, but... ;;</ref>

To make everyone on the internet start using colored text to discuss mysteries in a visually easy-to-understand method. Face it, {{<span style="color|:red|;">Using red and blue truth to argue and debate is way too damn fun.}}</span>

* {{<span style="color|:red| ;">This is plausible.}}</span> Why? Because the OP is right, {{<span style="color|:red|;">using the Red Truth, the Blue Truth, and even the Golden Truth to argue and debate is way too damn fun.}}</span>

** {{<span style="color|:green|;">The Green Truth feels a bit left out.}}</span>

*** The Green Truth goes around [[Breaking the Fourth Wall]], getting drunk and dialing up old witches in the middle of the night. We didn't invite him for a reason. Hey, wait, why isn't that red? Don't tell me {{<span style="color|:red|;">I made a terrible joke.}}</span> What!? Oh, come on...

We know that there are different [[Alternate Universe]]. When a witch gives Red Truth; it disconnects the Meta-World from any kakera where the Red Truth is factually not correct. Say, {{<span style="color|:red|;">Person A never left the room.}}</span> There's an infinite number of possibilities regarding Persons B-Z. And that's not even getting in the [[Literal Genie]] / [[False Reassurance]] aspect of language. Magic is just one HUGE branch of the Kakera; however, when someone pokes holes in this; the Speaker is dealing with the backlash of being tied to an existence contrary to theirs.

**** {{<span style="color|:red|;">The 'Cat Box' is in 1986, where Umineko (Mostly) takes place.}}</span> Additionally, the ability to move from Kakera to Kakera is effectively to move between different 'possibilities', stemming from a certain point. For example if Battler lost his hand prior to his magical romp with witches, he could end up learning to get by without it (Possible), get a prosthetic (Also possible), or have a sweet Gatling gun grafted on (Insane, but probably still possible). However, before beginning to hop kakera he lost his arm, so there's absolutely no 'possiblity' that exists where he still has an arm.

It's not that it's telling complete lies, but the red truth can be manipulated into being used for untrue statements, not necessarily outright lies. The trick is in punctuation. Sometimes, when red truths are spoken, the full stop, comma or the exclamation mark, or whatever is at the end of the sentence is not in red. This might mean that that specific statement was abruptly ended before being completed. That itself is outside of the definition of lying, but still inside the bounds of the rules of Battler's and Beatrice's game. {{<span style="color|:blue|;">It is a practice akin to 'quote mining', but you could say it's quote mining in reverse.}}</span>

'''{{<span style="color|:red|;">If X is true, then Y is also true. The reverse is true as well.}}</span>'''

'''{{<span style="color|:red|;">X is true, but Y isn't true}}</span>.'''

Beatrice: "'''{{<span style="color|:red|;">So from now on, when I speak the truth, I will use red}}</span>.'''"

Beatrice: "'''{{<span style="color|:red|;">So from now on, when I speak the truth, I will use red}}</span>{{color|#bb0000|.}}'''"

Beatrice: "'''{{<span style="color|:red|;">So from now on, when I speak the truth, I will use red}}</span>{{color|#bb0000|, but only in such a way which will benefit me and me only. That means that I am free to play around with words, punctuation, and transitivity of titles and other indicators of personal identity in order to bend and twist your perception of the objective, or in the case of humans as a species with faulty and biased senses, intersubjective truth. I also grant myself the privilege to be the one single entity who is allowed to lie in red. Everyone else is barred from that, and will be punished for that immediately by getting their mouths shut by non-deadly asphyxiation.}}'''"

{{<span style="color|:red|;">The "Red Key" tip notes that Lambda has weakened the Red Key, and on more then one occassionoccasion, someone demands that a Red Truth be backed by evidence, even though the absolute validity of the Red Truth is proclaimed in red during the game.}}</span> Furthermore, {{color|blue| There is absolutely no way for both of the following statements to be true:}} {{<span style="color|:red|;">"The real Kinzo wouldn't say that. Disappear. You, the illusion of Kinzo inside Natsuhi's mind, beautified by Natsuhi to suit her own purposes." and "In other words, on this island, all illusions which might lead someone to mistake something for Grandfather, including someone else pretending to be Grandfather, 'most certainly cannot work'.}}</span>

* {{<span style="color|:red|;">Natsuhi was not mistaking anything for Kinzo! An illusion that would make Battler, Jessica, or anyone look like Kinzo would fail! Nobody has caused Natsuhi to mistake anything from Kinzo. She just sees him because she's genuinely delusional and seeing things.}}</span>

** {{<span style="color|:red| ;">What you're saying is that Natsuhi mistook her delusion for Kinzo.}}</span> {{color|blue| Which contradicts the second Red Truth I quoted.}}

*** What is a delusion based on? {{color|blue|A delusion is based upon nothing.}} {{<span style="color|:red|;">There was no object, no matter that was confused for Kinzo by Natsuhi. Her delusions were images that have no physical presence.}}</span> {{color|blue|In other words, they were nothing.}} {{<span style="color|:red|;">People are not allowed to mistake "something" for Kinzo,}}</span> {{color|blue|but they are allowed to mistake nothing for Kinzo. There is no contradiction.}}

**** {{<span style="color|:red| ;">Delusions are caused by problems in the brain,}}</span> {{color|blue|therefore her delusion is based on ''something'', and thus violates the red truth. Furthermore, the idea that Natsuhi is delusional at all is based solely off of Red Truths that I have questioned the validity of, if you would claim she is delusional I demand that you present evidence outside the Red Truths.}}

***** Where does it say that nothing could cause an illusion of Kinzo? Wasn't the red saying that people absolutely wouldn't mistake A, B, or C for Kinzo? {{color|blue|Even if A, B, or C would not be seen as Kinzo, the rule doesn't prevent D from causing Kinzo to appear before someone, as long as they aren't 'seeing something that isn't Kinzo' as Kinzo.}} {{<span style="color|:red|;">You haven't crushed my theory that Delusions are allowed even by Red, Troper!}}</span>\\ I won't give you time to recover, I won't, I'll shatter your 'Contradictory Red Truth' theory with this blue wedge! {{color|blue|The 'illusion' of Kinzo doesn't refer to a literal illusion she sees and interacts with, but the way she always thought of Kinzo in her mind when he was alive!}} {{<span style="color|:red|;">Natsuhi's perspective is subjective and based off of Knox's 9th, so it can't be proved whether she truly believed in magic and saw Kinzo in an 'illusion', or knowingly used her imagination to try to say to herself "WWKD".}}</span> Take that, fall, fall to the deepest depths of purgatory, where my goats will chew on you, chew your bones, and make a soup! You want a taste, tropeeeeer?! Tastes great, doesn't iiiit?! We can let you taste it with magic, ahahahaha-(Insert ahaha.wav here)\\ ...Er, sorry. It looks like I got a little carried away. Either way, I should tidy this up a bit. Alright. About people asking for evidence with the red, {{color|blue|That was to force Battler to conform to Knox's 2nd, disallowing him from using a supernatural element such as magical 'red truth'.}} A good analogy can be how real world trials can have evidence thrown out because it was gathered illegally. The part that makes it hard to think about is that the witch side and the human side are playing the same game, but the rules and moves allowed are ''different''. When Battler tried to play a witch move, Lambdadelta basically said "Yeah, your knights don't move in an L shape. Tough luck." Virgilia said that the game was winnable, she never said it was fair.

****** {{<span style="color|:red| ;">Battler had been using the red truth as a detective tecnique since the second episode.}}</span> {{color|blue| Therefore, Beato's game didn't follow Knox's 2nd. And, thus Lambada's game has different rules then Beato's game. To use an analogy Beato was playing chess and Lambada was playing some other game that happens to use the same equipment. If the rule about using supernatural techniques can be different between Beato and Lambda game, then so can the rule about Red always being true.}}{{ <span style="color|:red| ;">Even though the absououte validity of the Red Truth was proclaimed during the second game, we had reasonable grounds to doubt it, until Battler attempted to proclaim Asumu is his mother during the fourth game.}}</span> {{color|blue|Since nothing like that happened during Lambada's game we have good reason to doubt any Red Truths made during her game.}}

******** {{color|blue|Ryukishi is trolling us.}} {{<span style="color|:red| ;">In the "Anti-Mystery vs Anti-Fantasy" TIP we're told we can only consider the Red Truth to be valid if we trust Beato. Later in episode four both Battler and Beato choke when trying to make false statements in red.}}</span> {{color|blue|Thereby proving that the idea that the Red Truth could be meaningless was a red harring. If he did suddenly make it meaningless in episode 5 (thereby fitting what was said in "Anti-Mystery vs Anti-Fantasy"), it would serve to troll the entire fanbase.}} Also, {{<span style="color|:red| ;">Ryukishi has stated the game is solvable with just the first four episode, so it's not like we need the reds from the fifth game to be true.}}</span>

********* {{<span style="color|:red|;">Ryukishi is a master of the Mind Screw[[Mind Screw|.]]}}</span> For evidence, see his recent statement on the Golden Truth and compare it to Lambda's description in EP1.

** {{color|blue| I will now show that some of the Red Truths made during the fifth game are false.}} {{<span style="color|:red| ;">The majority of Red Truths concern things that we, the readers, cannot verify. For example we cannot search Kinzo's study for a hidden door. However, Dlanor quotes Knox's Decalogue in red several times. The Decalogue exists in [[Real Life]], and therefore we can check whether her statements about it are true. They aren't.}}</span> {{color|blue| In particular even if we allow for paraphrasing there is absolutely no way Dlanor's claim about Knox's Ninth can be true. Checkmate.}}

**** {{<span style="color|:red|;">Knox's 5th was never quoted in red, its omission doesn't prove or disprove anything regarding the Red Truth.}}</span> The reason I cited Knox's 9th is because it is the only rule defined in red that isn't even remotely close to what the original says. Compare, "It is permitted for observers to let their own conclusions and interpretations be heard." and "The stupid friend of the detective, the Watson, must not conceal any thoughts which pass through his mind; his intelligence must be slightly, but very slightly, below that of the average reader. This is a rule of perfection; it is not of the esse of the detective story to have a Watson at all. But if he does exist, he exists for the purpose of letting the reader have a sparring partner, as it were, against whom he can pit his brains. 'I may have been a fool,' he says to himself as he puts the book down, 'but at least I wasn't such a doddering fool as poor old Watson.'" The Umineko version allows for [[Unreliable Narrators]], the real version requires the Watson to not hide his thoughts from the reader. {{color|blue|They don't mean the same thing at all!}}

***** Why should we care what Ryukishi07 says {{color|blue| [[Literary Agent Hypothesis|the stories were written by Maria Ushiromiya and Toya Hachijo.]]}} Also, even if he did write them {{color|blue|he could be a [[Lying Creator]]}}.<ref>Although I believe there are enough hints in Episodes 5 and 6 that the Red Truth works differently in those games, that it can't be called a trap at all</ref>. Not to mention, {{<span style="color|:red|;">[[Death of the Author]]. [[Word of God]] only counts when it is backed up by the source material.}}</span> In other words, an argument that relies solely on the author's blog post will not work. It's possible that the rules regarding the Red Truth were changed (thereby explaining why the characters treat it differently), but that every Red Truth happened to be true anyways (hence Ryukishi07's claim), but that would be a violation Knox's 6th.

{{color|blue|We've been misinterpreting the choking scenes the entire time.}} {{<span style="color|:red|;">As far as we know both Battler and Beato honestly believed what they were trying to say in red when they choked.}}</span> {{color|blue| I propose that rather then preventing the user from lying, the red only stops them from being mistaken. For example Battler could have said that Ange is his mom in red, because he knows that it's false.}}

****** (OP here.) {{<span style="color|:red|;">That "face value" statement is plausible and I hereby promote it to Blue Truth.}}</span> Again, '''{{<span style="color|:red|;">I acknowledge the possibility that I may be the one who is in error.}}</span>''' However, I will not deny the possibility that {{color|blue|either Ryukishi or someone else (a translator, for instance) screwed up and created the contradiction itself.}}

******* Thanks for the promotion, but one's opinion shouldn't be given in gold, especially when we're debating the rules for it in this very argument. {{color|blue| I still do not believe that there is a contradiction of any sort.}} {{<span style="color|:red| ;">Ryukishi is very good at trolling without lying.}}</span>

******** (OP here.) If not Gold, then Red. * laughs* I'll demote it to Red Truth. Like I said, you might be right, {{color|blue|I could be seeing something that isn't there, or not seeing something that stands out like a sore thumb}}, and {{<span style="color|:red|;">I acknowledge that. But we most certainly don't have anything solid as to what the connection is between Lambda's statement in EP5 and Ryukishi's statement above.}}</span> It's entirely possible that Ryukishi is trying to mess with us while confirming information. In fact, I'll even make that a Blue Truth. {{color|blue|I propose that Ryukishi is attempting to [[Mind Screw]] us with his statement above, by wording it in a way that makes it seem to contradict what Lambdadelta said in EP5 regarding the Golden Truth.}}

********* Well, duh. {{<span style="color|:red| ;">Ryukishi [[Mind Screw|Mind Screws]]s us successfully with every word that comes from his head. Every. Word.}}</span>

**** (OP here.) {{<span style="color|:red|;">Knox's 8th! It is forbidden for the case to be resolved with clues that are not presented!}}</span> Provide evidence for your Blue Truth, if you wish for it to be acknowledged!

We have very few statements of Golden Truth. EP5's "I guarenteeguarantee this corpse is Kinzo's!" and one about a flower pedal stating "This pedal was made with magic. It was a very good magic", or something along those lines (As EP6 is untranslated and OP doesn't remember the exact phrasing".

***** (Respondent here.) {{<span style="color|:red|;">A diary belonging to Natsuhi was mentioned in EP5.}}</span> Battler can ask for the date of Kinzo's alleged death and compare Natsuhi's entry against that of a more "sane" person (say, Nanjo's records) and ''voila'', confirmation. {{<span style="color|:purple|;">This is}}</span> {{<span style="color|:grey|;">(1)one of many possible ways|(2)the only possible way}}</span> {{<span style="color|:purple| ;">for Battler to confirm Kinzo's death.}}</span> It has been stated that Gold needs a check for absolute validity. Furthermore, anything said in Gold can be said in Red, but not always vice versa. Finally, {{<span style="color|:red|;">Kinzo has been stated in Red to have already died before the events of October 4 and 5, 1986}}</span>, therefore, {{<span style="color|:purple|;">Battler}}</span> {{<span style="color|:grey|;">(1)can|(2)must}}</span> {{<span style="color|:purple|;">use that as well to confirm that the corpse is Kinzo's.}}</span> Counter that, if you can! You can't, can you? ''[[ThisPunctuated! IsFor! SpartaEmphasis!|''This!]] '''[[This Is Sparta|Is!]] <bigspan style="font-size:120%;">[[This Is Sparta|CHECKMAAAAAAAAAAAATE!!!</span>]]'''''</big>

****** {{<span style="color|:red|;">Knox's 8th. It is forbidden for the case to be resolved with clues that are not presented.}}</span> Where was it stated that Gold needs a check for absolute validity and/or that all Gold statements can be said in red, but not (always) vice versa?

******* (Respondent here.) Mmm. Well played. It's stated on this wiki's Main Page for ''Umineko'', which, upon consideration, stirs a question of my own. Where the hell did '''they''' get it from? Anyone up for some snooping? In the meantime, I demoted the statements in question until they have some support from the series itself. {{<span style="color|:red|;">Valid support can come from either of the three versions of the story so far. The '''games''' or either the '''manga''' or the '''anime''' should either one ever get to where the Golden Truth is explained.}}</span>

* {{<span style="color|:red|;">There is no objective means of proving that a particular corpse belongs to Kinzo.}}</span> {{color|blue|Battler proved that it was Kinzo's corpse with golden truth. Therefore golden truth is not objective.}}

* {{<span style="color|:red|;">Battler's proof succeeded without him providing evidence.}}</span> {{color|blue|Therefore, golden truth does not require evidence.}}

* {{<span style="color|:red|;">Battler's proof was not blocked by Knox's 2nd.}}</span> {{color|blue|Therefore golden truth is not supernatural.}}

* {{<span style="color|:red|;">According to Ryukishi, golden truth can be used by humans.}}</span>

* So basically, {{color|blue| the Golden Truth is the statement of rules of Beatrice's game.}} This, in a way, combines the idea of "Beatrice's heart" (as Beatrice is the embodiment of the rules), premise truth (as the rules are based off the premise), AND explains Ryukishi's statement that "even pieces can use the Golden Truth." After all, if you're in an RP and a player starts godmodding, you can accuse them of breaking the rule {{<span style="color|:gold|;">"No godmodding allowed"}}</span>, even if you're not the GM.

{{<span style="color|:red| ;">It is forbidden for the red to confirm or deny the existence of supernatural elements. "6 people: Kinzo, Genji, Shannon, Kanon, Gohda, and Kumasawa are dead!"}}</span> {{color|blue|Shows that furniture count as people. When combined with the fact }} {{<span style="color|:red|;">Battler saw every mundane character (except Erika), on the island, while he was the detective.}}</span> {{color|blue| and}} {{<span style="color|:red| ;">"No more than 17 humans exist on this island!!"}}</span> {{color|blue|This denies the existence of the Stakes, the Siestas, Ronove, and Gaap. Which the Red Truth cannot do. But, if we take the later statement to mean "No more than 17 entities which meet some Criteria X (which I refuse to explain and could change at any point) exist on this island!!", then no problem arises. This also explains the apparent contradiction at the end of the sixth game different definitions of person were being used.}} Note howver, that an Unknown Person X committing the crimes is still impossible due to Knox's 1st and 8th.

** {{<span style="color|:red| ;">Part of the Fantasy Premise is that Kanon, Shannon, and Genji are magical characters, and they count as humans/people. Also, my theroy doesn't rely on "human" and "person" having different meanings from each other. It proposes that who counts as a human/person is chosen by the speaker whenever the word is used.}}</span>

*** In the magical perspective, Kanon and Shannon are also counted as human because of their love with George and Jessica. It's very likely Genji was gay for Kinzo, but that aside, {{<span style="color|:red| ;">Battler's seen them with his own fucking eyes}</span>}, so questioning their existence or trying to shed doubt on them is completely futile, unlike the magical characters, who musn't be referenced one way or another to make the game far.

**** {{<span style="color|:red| ;">Kinzo is also listed as a person in red. According to the Fantasy Premise Kinzo is also the }}</span> sorcerer {{<span style="color|:red|;">Goldsmith. Sorcerer is the spear counterpart of witch.}}</span> Therefore, {{color|blue| the existence of EVA and Virgilia is denied, which the Red Truth isn't allowed to do.}}

***** {{<span style="color|:red| ;">Actually, Kinzo is a Magician, a human who can use magic, according to the Fantasy Premise. Witches/Sorcerers are people who have "transcended humanity." So yea...not valid.}}</span>

****** {{<span style="color|:red| ;">My mistake. However, Sakutarou and one of Maria's toy rabbit was shown to have been destroyed by Rosa. According to their profiles Sakutarou was destroyed by ROSA, and Siesta 556 was destroyed by the "black witch".}}</span> {{color|blue| The Siestas represent Maria's rabbits to some extent. Thus, the "black witch" who killed 556 is obviously Rosa. Furthermore, the use of all caps in a character's name indicates the character in question in a witch.}} {{<span style="color|:red| ;">Rosa is listed as one of the fifteen dead people near the end of the third game.}}</span> {{color|blue| Therefore, Rosa is both a person and a witch.}}

** The precise japanese phrases used in this example are '人間' (by Erika, WH translation 'humans'; [http://tinyurl.com/25g58dp wiktionary]) and '人' (by Be/Ba, WH translation 'people'; [http://tinyurl.com/3cn5ph wiktionary]). {{<span style="color|:red| ;">These are different sequences of characters; arguments about them having different meanings can therefore not be dismissed at this time!}}</span> In particular, the translation of '人間' as 'humans' is dubious since the term can apparently also be translated as 'character' or 'personality'. The possible implications of this should be obvious.

Given the rule that the Red Truth can't confirm or deny supernatural elements. How else would saying statements like {{<span style="color|:red|;">"With my power, any kind of closed room can be created or destroyed"}}</span> and {{<span style="color|:red|;">"Your so-called candy magic is nothing more than a sleight of hand!! Just a sleight of hand that the fake witch calling herself Beatrice or whatever claimed was magic!!"}}</span> be possible? Also, since the Red Truth is itself a supernatural element statements like {{<span style="color|:red|;">Red only tells the truth}}</span> don't contradict this theory.

** {{<span style="color|:red| ;">Erika, made the statement about the candy magic in red during the sixth game!}}</span> You're not trying to calimclaim that scene was falsified are you? {{<span style="color|:red| ;">Knox's 8th. It is forbidden for the case to be resolved with clues that are not presented.}}</span> If you would claim that scene was falsified you must present evidence to support that claim!

** {{<span style="color|:red| ;">Beato claimed in red that she had the power to create any kind of closed room.}}</span> {{color|blue| The use of the word "any" indicates she could create closed rooms that can only be created using magic.}}

**** {{<span style="color|:red| ;">Dlanor used Knox's 2nd to stop Battler from using the Red Truth during the trial..}}</span> Therefore, {{color|blue| The red truth is a supernatural element.}} {{<span style="color|:red|;">The statement, "The death of the four in the cousins' room has been proclaimed with the red text!!" shows that the red exists.}}</span> {{color|blue| Since the red is a supernatural element the red can not be used to prove that the red exists without violating the rule that forbids the red from being used to confirm the existence of supernatural elements.}}

****** {{color|blue| So she just cited Knox's 2nd when she stopped Battler from using the red because she felt like it?}} {{<span style="color|:red|;">Knox's 8th. It is forbidden for the case to be resolved with clues that are not presented.}}</span> Where is it ever indicated that she is someone who would do such it thing?

******** Fine, I concede that Dlanor sealing the red doesn't prove it's supernatural. However,{{ <span style="color|:red|;">Knox's 4th. It is forbidden for unknown drugs or hard to understand scientific devices to be used.}}</span> {{color|blue|Neither the Red Truth nor anything that would have the same function existed in 1986 in [[Real Life]], in fact nothing of the kind exists even now! Therefore, the Red Truth must be a supernatural element.}}

********* {{<span style="color|:red|;">The Red Truth also doesn't exist on the Gameboard, so it's supernatural status is absolutely irrelevant to the Decalogue, as the Meta-World, strictly speaking, is not part of the mystery. I am noticing a trend in the WMG page wherein people are confusing matters of context and relevancy when making speculations.}}</span>

********** {{color|blue| Wasn't the statement "I never told anyone except Shannon that I like Fall." on the gameboard as a Red Truth?}} Either way, {{<span style="color|:red|;">the only character who we are told is a homunculus doesn't exist on the gameboard either (having died 19 years prior) But, the red still can't be used to confirm or deny the existence of homunculi.}}</span>

* Nevertheless, {{<span style="color|:red|;">my claim that Erika's candy magic statement would violate the rule against using the Red Truth to deny supernatural elements unless it was possible for that statement to be a lie has not been countered.}}</span>

*** {{<span style="color|:red|;">According to the Red Key tip it is possible for restrctions to be put on the use and power of the Red Key.}}</span> {{color|blue|The Red Truth can normally be used to confirm and deny the existence of supernatural elements, but Beato restricted its abillity to do so when she made the rule against using the Red Truth to confirm or deny supernatural elements.}}

* Seriously, it's awesome. Although it needs a simpler color to write and use. I propose {{<span style="color|:purple|;">Purple}}</span>. Schrodinger's cat is neither alive nor dead, and the Schroedinger's truth, an analytical truth rather than an absolute truth or a theory, also exists between them. Purple is a fusion of red and blue, and is a worthy color for the Schrodinger's truth.

** {{<span style="color|:red|;">Schroedinger's Truth is used to indicate that one of two or more possibilities is correct (like the red) without mentioning which one.}}</span> I propose that we use Schrodinger's Truth like this:

{{<span style="color|:purple|;">There will be a</span> <span }}{{style="color|:grey|;">(1)twist|(2)untwist/absence of a twist}}{{</span> <span style="color|:purple| ;">regarding the red truth. The probability at this point for either to be is equal. Anything Ryuukishi states outside the novels</span> }}{{<span style="color|:grey|;">(1)is|(2)is not}}</span> {{<span style="color|:purple|;">a red herring, and therefore anything he reveals outside of the novels</span> }}{{<span style="color|:grey|;">(3)can|(4)can not}}{{</span> <span style="color|:purple| ;">be regarded as reliable information. Therefore, the probability for X to carry the value of 1 is equal to the probability for X to carry the value of 0. The red truth</span> }}{{<span style="color|:grey|;">(5)is|(6)is not}}{{</span> <span style="color|:purple| ;">founded on the fallacy of bare assertion. Basically, the red truth claims it's telling the truth at all times, but</span> }}{{<span style="color|:grey|;">(5)nothing|(6)something (such as people lying and choking on red)}}{{</span> <span style="color|:purple| ;">other than the red truth itself can confirm that. That</span> }}{{<span style="color|:grey|;">(5)is a huge loophole, what means that there is a great chance for a first-degree twist to be lodged there, waiting to be exposed|(6)is only a postulate. Therefore, this isn't reliable information either.}}{{</span> <span style="color|:purple| ;">Any hint or revelation regarding the red truth before a certain (unspecified as of now) point in the storyline</span> }}{{<span style="color|:grey|;">(1)is|(2)is not}}{{</span> <span style="color|:purple| ;">a red herring. After examining these four statements, we can say nothing but that '''a first-degree twist is equally possible as a first-degree untwist at this point in time'''.}}</span>

*** Not quite. In fact, {{<span style="color|:red|;">there are many incorrect uses of the blue on this WMG,}}</span> as Blue's nature is not to postulate the rules or evidence, but to provide a theory which behaves as a solution to a given problem. Schrodinger's truth is not a truth of providing a theory, but to analyze the validity of a theory.

***** Blue is used to declare hypotheses, Schroedringer's Truth is used to declare that if X is true then Y must also be true. For example, "{{<span style="color|:purple| ;">The victims were all killed by}}</span> {{<span style="color|:grey|;">Battler}}</span>, {{<span style="color|:purple|;">therefore, the culprit is</span> }}<span {{style="color|:grey| ;">Battler}}</span>" means that if Battler killed the victims then Battler is the culprit. It's actually closer to red then blue.

****** Then it could be called the {{<span style="color|:purple|;">Truth Of}}</span> {{<span style="color|:grey|;">Alternate Possibilities}}</span>, as the possibilities include at least one Red Truth and at least one Blue Truth. {{<span style="color|:red|;">This interests me more and more as it continues to unfold.}}</span>

******* (6th respondent here.) {{<span style="color|:red|;">Blue Truth proposes only one possibility, while Schroedinger's Truth proposes multiple ones, among which, is the real truth, not a twisted or omitted truth, but '''THE''' truth, the '''WHOLE''' truth, and '''NOTHING BUT''' the truth, so help us Beatrice.}}</span> Furthermore, to recite what the original creator of Schroedinger's Truth said of it, "''{{<span style="color|:gold|;">Keep in mind that the 'Schrodinger truth' is not really a truth, but rather a tool which may or may not help us judge how something might develop in the near future.}}</span>"'' {{<span style="color|:red|;">Schroedinger's Truth is '''not''' redundant.}}</span>

******* {{<span style="color|:red|;">The Blue Truths regarding Battler's qualification and by extension his parentage are as follows:}}</span>

{{<span style="color|:red| ;">None of those followed the same format as the Truth of Alternate Possibilities.}}</span>

'''UPDATE''': (6th respondent here.) Due to the introduction of the Purple Declaration in EP5, it is called for that this be re-colored. I propose {{color|orange|Orange}} for Confirmed Red and {{<span style="color|:brown|;">Brown}}</span> for Unconfirmed Segments.

{{<span style="color|:red| ;">Red Truth}}</span>, {{<span style="color|:blue| ;">Blue Truth}}</span>.

** Battler: {{<span style="color|:red| ;">X is the culprit}}</span>

** Battler: {{color|yellow|<span style="color:gold;">X is the culprit because Y}}</span>

{{<span style="color|:red| ;">Ushiromiya Kinzo is dead at the beggining of all games.}}</span>

{{<span style="color|:red| ;">I gurantee that this is Ushiromiya Kinzo's corpse!}}</span>

{{color|yellow|<span style="color:gold;">You used magic to create a golden flower petal inside an overturned cup. It was a splendid bit of magic.}}</span>

{{<span style="color|:red| ;">There are only five master keys.}}</span>

{{color|yellow|<span style="color:gold;">A sixth master key will never be found.}}</span>