Topic on User talk:DocColress

Given not only your username, but your extensive edits on the Pokémon pages, I'd like your input on a somewhat controversial addition I'd like to make to Pokémon's monster page: Cyrus. I've recently replayed Platinum and I have to say, when it comes down to it, Cyrus is a LOT more deplorable than I remembered. I'd say he's easily up there with Ghetsis, or hell, WORSE than Ghetsis in some ways that I plan on addressing below. I have a feeling you've played the games, but I'll present my case in the fancy TV Tropes way so I can get my point across in an orderly way.

Who is he? Cyrus is the head of the organization Team Galactic, a villainous group that tries to harness different sources of energy to help complete Cyrus' goal of creating a whole new world, a world that they believe is a beautiful utopia. Unbeknownst to them, Cyrus' true vision of a perfect world is a horrifying world without spirit, a world that he also believes is fit for him alone. He believes that things like Spirit and Emotion leave humanity incomplete, which would put him in a more sympathetic light if it wasn't for the fact that he's not only planning on wiping out all life, but reshaping the world purely for himself.

What does he do?: Since Cyrus is the leader of Team Galactic, most of the team's deeds are tied back to him, which range from goofy and harmless like stealing honey to a lot more dangerous such as bombing lakes in order to get access to the legendary Pokémon that live within. When the legendary Pokémon (Mesprit, Azelf, and Uxie) are captured, Cyrus has their energy extracted to create an item called a Red Chain that will prove instrumental to controlling Dialga and Palkia, the legendary Pokémon of time and space respectively so he can unmake and remake the world. The extraction process is shown to be painful as the three lesser legendaries are shown to be in a state of horrific agony when you examine them, and a couple of nearby scientists are horrified and disgusted by what they've done under Cyrus' orders.

And as mentioned above, Cyrus is also manipulative as hell, given that he's been able to sway so many people to his side and hooks them in with charismatic speeches as you see when you infiltrate his hideout. However, talking to him later reveals that he was lying to them about wanting to create a beautiful new world for humanity, and proudly tells you to your face that his world isn't suited for them and that his world is going to be for him alone and that it's going to be far more horrifying than he made them believe. While he does let you save the Legendary Pokémon he's captured after you've beaten him, this isn't really dog petting as he feels that they've already served their purpose, and thus would end up being wiped out anyway once his plans are set in motion. And at the game's climax, he summons Dialga and Palkia at Spear Pillar, and starts to unmake the fabric of time and space, only for the Legendary Pokémon Giratina to interfere and drag him to the hellish Distortion World. If the goddamn devil of the Pokémon world goes out of it's way to try to stop you, you know you fit the qualifications of this trope. And even when he's been defeated one last time and Giratina has been captured or defeated, he doesn't show any signs of giving up his dream, he instead goes on a screaming rant about how useless emotions are and that things like spirit leave humanity ugly and complete, even showing disgust for himself due to possessing the emotions he tries so hard to deny. His last words before disappearing deep into the Distortion World is that one day, he'll make sure that the player wakes up in his world: a world without spirit.

Does he have a Freudian excuse or any redeeming traits? This is where it gets a bit tricky: I don't feel that Cyrus is presented as sympathetic in the slightest or that he's justified in trying to accomplish his plan, yet later on in the game, you meet his grandfather who sheds a sympathetic light on Cyrus. Apparently, Cyrus used to be a sweet yet anti-social kid who grew up in an abusive household. His parents were very strict and set unrealistically high standards he could never live up to, and this caused Cyrus to believe that emotions and spirit only bought on suffering and incompleteness to humanity, and by getting rid of them he could achieve peace. Plus, Cyrus' grandfather shows regret that he couldn't help Cyrus and take him in when he could. But does having mommy/daddy issues really justify becoming an Omnicidal Maniac? Does his Freudian excuse hold up to the actions he's willing to commit and his true intentions?

There's also the fact that Cyrus owns a Crobat, which can only be evolved from a Golbat if said Golbat fully loves it's trainer. Yet, Cyrus also mentions to the player that he doesn't view Pokémon as his friends or tools, but that he simply uses them to channel his energy through into battle. And given that it would be a bit anti-climactic to fight him with a NFE (Not Fully Evolved) Pokémon from a gameplay standpoint, it's never made clear if his Crobat's status is due to dog petting or pragmatism on his part.

How is he viewed by other characters in the story? Given his surprising charisma and the lies he feeds to his followers, they're all fanatically loyal and devoted to him as they believe that their actions will make a better world for themselves and humanity in general. However, the ones who do find out about his true plans are disgusted. There's the scientists who worked on the Red Chain I mentioned above, and there's also his commander Saturn, who turned good and is now steering Team Galactic's remnants in a more benevolent direction after learning about the horrific extents of Cyrus' actions. And given how Giratina is stated to more or less be the Pokémon universe's equivalent of the devil (It was tossed into the Distortion World due to the trouble it would cause if I remember correctly), the fact that it was willing to stop Cyrus from unmaking the universe shows that even the Devil has standards.

So all in all, I admit that Cyrus is a weird example who is a bit more sympathetic than Ghetsis, but still nasty enough to meet this trope's qualifications. While he could be written off as a Well-Intentioned Extremist due to the fact that he genuinely believes that spirit hinders humanity and that unmaking and reshaping the universe is the right thing to do. But given the fact that he blatantly lies and uses others only to throw them away later so he can be the sole occupant of his universe (Though also extending that privilege to the player after having his plans foiled as a means to spite you) I feel makes him a cruel, selfish, ego-maniacal Knight Templar who crosses the line and becomes the main series' first true monster.

So there you have it! I may come off as stupid due to arguing for the case of a monster who isn't Ghetsis, but I just feel that Cyrus isn't quite as sympathetic as people make him out to be, but would rather discuss this with others who are familiar with his home series as well. And heck, for all I know I simply misinterpreted him wrong (And given my former stance on Willem Dafoe's Green Goblin, it wouldn't be the first time either!)

Hoh boy. Cyrus is actually a villain I am very adamant in my insistence that he is NOT a Complete Monster. I've gone over the games and different mediums that have Cyrus, and in none of them does he fully qualify. He's a monster no doubt, but too much of a Tragic Monster to qualify. He's super heinous, but he's also complex in a way that makes him potentially redeemable, unlike some monsters whose complexity makes them less redeemable (Frollo, Dewey Novak, Norman Osborn, etc.).

Before I address your points, I'll go over the basic criteria as defined by this wiki. Truly heinous by the standards of the story? Cyrus passes that. His terribleness is played seriously at all times? He passes this too. The story makes no attempt to portray him in any positive way? He fails this one, since not only do his own lackeys see him as inspirational, but even Looker commends him as being impressive. Other characters fear and hate this character? He fails this for similar reasons: not even Cynthia seems to hate him as much as she pities him. The Freudian Excuse criteria is the toughest part since he kind of fails and passes it: what we hear of his backstory actually gives him VERY valid reasons for developing the psychology he has now, but there's no sympathy evoked for him in the present day story until you hear of his past, which is AFTER he's been defeated. He passes "no regret for their crimes" because he wants to be machine-like and have no emotional attachments or feelings towards anything, but fails "devoid of altruistic qualities" because, while he's self centered, he does seriously believe he's being altruistic by making a new "better" world, and while he's not redeemed in the games' story, the possibility of redemption is open to him. We know this because in TWO different manga adaptations, his character ends up getting redeemed. This shows that other writers for the Pokemon series view him as redeemable. This is similar to why characters like Katejina Loos from Victory Gundam couldn't pass the trope. If they're shown as being redeemable elsewhere, then they were never all that irredeemable to begin with.

Now first off, the biggest issue here is that you have a HUGE misconception that many people (even the writers of the anime) have due to the phrasing of Cyrus' line being unclear. He did NOT want to make a world "for him alone." He "sought a new world entirely for himself", as in for himself and not for anyone else in Team Galactic. He said that his speech to his followers was true up to "Me, Cyrus." after which he proceeded to rant about the glory of creating a new world "FOR TEAM GALACTIC." The lie was that Team Galactic was never going to obtain the power to create and rule the new world: only he would. Team Galactic was his tool, his means to his end. So "entirely for myself" meant "entirely for my own reasons and for me alone to become the god of time/space", not "for me alone to exist in." If he was the new universe's only inhabitant, what would he be God over? In fact, his plan was the exact opposite of what many people think. He'd be the only one to NOT live in the new world because he'd be up in the heavens sustaining the universe as it's god. Everyone else would inherit the new world, but they'd have their spirit forcibly removed from them. That's why he tells the PC "one day, you will awaken in a world of my making - a world without spirit." It wasn't just to spite you - it was confirmation that there would be other people existing in the new world, which makes sense because otherwise what's the point? It's sick and horrifying, but in his warped mind, he sees this as a self sacrifice. He's willing to give up his individual existence in order to give everyone a world that he deems perfect. The problem is that it'd be perfection as defined by him, an obvious madman with deep psychological issues, and that's why he needed to be stopped.

While letting you save the Lake Trio isn't a Pet the Dog since he was already done with them and ready to start his destructive plan, and he in facts derides you for your compassion in trying to save them, in that same scene he also commends you and admits he finds aspects of you to be respectable and worthwhile, and he gives you a free Master Ball out of RESPECT. That actually IS a generous gesture on his part, since he didn't have to do it at all.

Giratina is not exactly The Devil so much as it is the keeper of the Underworld, like Osiris or Hades. It was thrown into the Distortion World because that's literally the only place it can thrive - it's role is to keep that world together. Primal Dialga and Darkrai from Mystery Dungeon, or even Ghetsis, were more Devil-like. And it didn't show up to stop Cyrus - it showed up because time and space were being distorted. It grabbed Cyrus and dragged him into the Distortion World once it saw he was behind the distortion, but it didn't know that at the time it first showed up. And this even feels smaller in comparison to the Pokemon God, Arceus, dragging Purple Eyes with him in Guardian Signs, so Cyrus falls short in comparison to more evil and selfish Omnicidal Maniac.

Cyrus, Ghetsis, and Lysandre have all had moments of Villainous Breakdown coupled with Redemption Rejection. There's one key thing to note, though - out of all of them, only one has his moment NOT played for evoking any pity or sorrow. That one being Ghetsis. Both Cyrus and Lysandre are, in the end, shown to be more pitiful and broken rather than truly pure evil. Cyrus and Lysandre broke down and rejected redemption because they were so set in their madness that they weren't willing to accept or embrace the truth, whereas Ghetsis broke down and rejected redemption because his heart was completely black and he could not comprehend his "son" showing more strength of character than he, the supposedly "perfect" Ghetsis.

I do agree that Cyrus in the present-day story is not at all sympathetic. Once you know his story, he's more pitiful and more tragic, but not sympathetic. I can empathize with him, but not sympathize or get behind his goals, logic, or behavior since he's too far gone into madness and evil. However, his backstory actually goes beyond just parents issues. The implication is that because so much pressure was put upon him and he was so hurt by other people, he found solace in machines because they had no emotions and performed efficiently, exactly as they were programmed. And this caused Cyrus to look at the issues in his life and the lives of others, and start seeing the world as if it were a broken computer, a broken system that needed to be mended and repaired. So if he could become a god, destroy the universe and recreate it devoid of the spirit that he believed was responsible for all of it's ills, than he could essentially "reboot" reality and install a new programming into every living being, one that would make them behave more like machines who followed their programming with efficiency and logic. Cyrus believed that to be the key to world peace, which also explains why he was modeling himself to behave more machine-like than human - he was acting the way he hoped everyone would act in his new world. This also indicates a self breaking cycle: he started out with pure ideals, but the more pressure got put upon him, the more he turned to machines. The more he turned to machines, the more detached from humanity he became. The more detached he became, the less moral he became. And the less moral he became, the more extreme he became with his quest to make the world a better place. He basically broke his own moral compass without truly realizing what he was breaking. Lastly, the issue with his parents wanting him to be perfect adds a Freudian angle to his psychology and plan. If he were to become god of time/space, creator and master of the universe, then he'd be the most divine and perfect thing in existence, finally being as perfect as his parents wanted him to be.

Also, while Cyrus is an Omnicidal Maniac no doubt, a lot of people tend to focus on the "destruction" part of his plan as if that were his main objective, but it wasn't. His objective was actually creation: God is more known for creation than destruction. Cyrus wanted to become a deity in order to create a new world that he felt would be a better world, going by his standards of perfection and goodness. Obliterating the existing world was the means to this end. He'd kill every living thing, but then he'd also restore them back to life minus their spirit. Which is horrific in itself, but still something more than just mass murder.

The Crobat thing implies both dog petting AND pragmatism. Golbat evolves into Crobat if it loves it's trainer, but that doesn't say the trainer has to love Golbat - only treat it kindly enough for it to love him or her. That's likely what Cyrus did: he tended to Golbat's needs and treated it nicely without ACTUALLY loving the Pokemon itself. So it's kind of a redeeming quality, but it's kind of not. Which is sort of a trend with Cyrus' character.

With other characters, most of them actually don't seem to harbor that much resentment. While Saturn drew the line at the removal of spirit, he had still been inspired by Cyrus' ideals and charisma and was willing to follow him even whilst knowing about the destruction of the existing world, just to see if he could really pull it off. Mars and Jupiter were loyal to Cyrus even after he was gone, turning their backs on Charon because he wasn't as good a leader as Cyrus had been. Looker flat out complemented his skills at swaying masses of followers, and Cynthia, while angry at him, really seemed to want him to see reason and ultimately expressed pity for him after he had gone, since he couldn't understand the good that spirit and emotion gives people - including compassion, which is what she was feeling for him at the moment. And Giratina had no standards against Cyrus personally - only his actions. Any human could do the same thing and Giratina would react the same way, so to Giratina, Cyrus was just a random insane human causing trouble to time and space.

One extra thing worth noting is that, in Pokemon, the heinous standard is less straightforward than in some other works. Usually the villains who go all out in pure selfish evil on a smaller scale end up being worse than villains who operate on a larger one. In the anime, Hunter J is worse than Cyrus even though her actions weren't as destructive to the world and countless lives. In the Diamond And Pearl Adventure manga, Charon is worse than Cyrus for similar reasons. In the main games, Ghetsis is worse than Cyrus and Lysandre despite operating on a less wide scale and posing less of a danger to people's lives. Need we even get into Purple Eyes or the lead Cipher admins?

Cyrus is a character who in-universe thinks he's a Well Intentioned Extremist and truly wants to be one because he truly wants to help others and make the world better, but is really just a cruel, selfish, ego-maniacal Knight Templar with delusions of righteousness. But he's not thoroughly iredeemably pure evil enough to pass the trope's qualifications, he doesn't want to be the sole occupant of his universe (again, he'd be the only one NOT on Earth in the new universe), and he was not even a straightforward mass murderer like Lysandre (and AZ for that matter) or a serial torturer like Ghetsis. He simply has too many vaguely positive or pitiful traits, not nearly as much of a bad rep in-universe as Ghetsis got, and has found redemption in two official manga. He's basically this series' answer to Gendo Ikari - a terrible man who wants to play God, but whose complexities ultimately pull him away from this trope rather than to it. So no, he doesn't count as an example. Ever.

While you misunderstood Cyrus quite a good deal, I'm actually not upset that you brought this up. It's good to clear up why a character should or should not pass the trope, and it's something we ought to do more of. :)

Well, I suppose I done goofed. d: But I do appreciate you presenting your points like that as well, really, that's why I said admitted that he'd be a questionable entry even if he did qualify. Mainly, me misinterpreting his line about lying to his minions was what made me consider him as a Monster while I didn't consider him one before and I apologize for that. I think I ended doing what I think is TV Trope's main problem with this trope: looking more at his actions as opposed to the character as a whole. But yeah, I'm definitely not opposed to discussing this kind of stuff either!

As I said, I appreciate the discussion anyway. Cyrus as a far-gone Complete Monster as an Alternative Character Interpretation on the YMMV page is possible, but he cannot be an example on the main trope because it's for A: villains who are unambiguously in line with our criteria, and B: are widely agreed upon. Cyrus hits at least three points of the criteria but either arguably fails or definitely fails the rest, and there are fans (and writers) who don't see him as irredeemably pure evil. Contrast with someone like Ghetsis, who does hit just about all points of the criteria and is hardly, if ever, argued to not be a full-stop irredeemably pure evil villain beyond redemption even by people who don't see him as a CM.

As far as actions go, Cyrus is one of the most horrific and heinous villains in the franchise and any franchise I'm a fan of, since his behavior and goals are morally and spiritually disgusting to me. But the actions ultimately reflect a man who's broken, psychotic, psychologically damaged, and mentally disturbed rather than one who's absolutely evil, and he still does have qualities that can be viewed as redeeming, altruistic, sympathetic, or positive. A CM has to be a perfect combo of truly heinous actions plus zero redeeming features, which is a level of evil that gets clearly reflected in the villain's deeds. (The golden rule for this trope here is basically "they're not monsters because they commit heinous atrocities, they commit heinous atrocities because they're monsters"). Despite operating on smaller scales and seeming like small time compared to Cyrus' grandiose plans and actions, villains like Hunter J, Kodai, Ghetsis, Charon, and Ein commit deeds and exhibit behavior that show them to be nothing short of total scum. That, to me, defines the heinous standard in Pokemon, and since we're not as picky as TV Tropes when it comes to "baseline heinousness", they can pass the trope while seemingly more heinous villains like Cyrus cannot.

If you have any more candidates, we can discuss them more. Also, is there any place where I could lay down who in what series' I most definitely do NOT want to see labeled as a CM, and why? That sort of thing might help.

I'm not really sure where we could put down our own "100% NOT a Monster" list, honestly. Maybe on the main Complete Monster page's talk section?

At the moment, I really don't feel like there are any candidates I'd like to make a case for. Though I am keeping an eye on more than a few potential candidates ranging across multiple media (Kaido, Big Mom, and the Five Elder Stars from One Piece, Scarecrow from Batman Arkham Knight as well as Hush if he reappears there, Ultron and Thanos from the future Avengers movies, and Pagan Min from Far Cry 4). It may be useless to talk about them for now, but I'm just keeping an eye on people who I see fitting the criteria once their stories are told.

You mean their discussion pages? I was considering it, but I don't know how well it will work...

Well I'll be working as an administrator for this place from time to time, so if you need any help in regards to any given trope, let me know.

Alright then! Take care now!

Posting this here since I don't want to flood your talkspace with topics, but I noticed that a lot of examples were deleted from the Film page for Complete Monster. Is there any reason why? Well, I have a feeling for a bulk of the examples that it has to do with getting rid of examples ported straight from TV Tropes. But how come Aldrich Killian and the Green Goblin were removed too? Did you deem them as insufficiently heinous, or what? Having seen both movies I certainly agree on Killian (Hell, if I had to pick between him or Obadiah if we had to have one Iron Man example, I'd ultimately pick Killian) and while not fully convinced about Goblin's spot on the page, I still really liked your reasoning for him and think you made a good case for him.

And if I'm just jumping the gun here and you're really going to do something with them later, I apologize! I was just curious is all.

I accidentally "rolled back" about 10 edits I made, reverting the page to before my contributions were made. I'm sorry about that! It's fixed now!

Ah, okay then!

It's all good now, right? All the edits and contributions I made are still there?

Yep! Everyone from Killian to Coba are all in place! :)

I see. Now I'll know what to avoid from now on. :)