Underestimating Badassery: Difference between revisions

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{{quote|Jokerz Leader: Who do you think you're talking to, old man? We're the Jokerz.
{{quote|Jokerz Leader: Who do you think you're talking to, old man? We're the Jokerz.
Bruce Wayne: (Dryly) Sure you are. }}
Bruce Wayne: (Dryly) Sure you are. }}
** Or

{{quote|Payback: You're a mean old man, you know that?
{{quote|Payback: You're a mean old man, you know that?
Bruce: Mm-hmm. And what are you?
Bruce: Mm-hmm. And what are you?
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** To be fair, he probably legitimately didn't know—the Spartans were blithely assuming that tales of their exploits were known worldwide, while Cyrus ruled a vast empire that was only just moving into the region. Cyrus was too smart to intentionally snub a diplomat—nevertheless, the Spartans took it as a ''massive'' insult. A few years later, he got his answer. His successor Xerxes got a much more comprehensive education three generations later.
** To be fair, he probably legitimately didn't know—the Spartans were blithely assuming that tales of their exploits were known worldwide, while Cyrus ruled a vast empire that was only just moving into the region. Cyrus was too smart to intentionally snub a diplomat—nevertheless, the Spartans took it as a ''massive'' insult. A few years later, he got his answer. His successor Xerxes got a much more comprehensive education three generations later.
** The Athenians had something of an inversion during the reign of Darius: When the Ionian city of Miletos rebelled and set up a democracy, Athens set 1,000 hoplites to support the Milesians against the Persians. The Athenian brigade was so successful, they managed not only to (temporarily) rescue Miletos, they also marched up to Sardis, the capital of the Persian satrapy (province) of Lydia, and torched it. Upon receiving word of the attack, Darius (after having a fit) asked, "Who ''are'' the Athenians?" Presumably after getting an answer, he is said to have shot an arrow into the sky and said, "God grant that I may punish the Athenians." According to Herodotus at any rate, this led to the ill-fated Persian expedition at Marathon and eventually the Persian invasion of Greece under Xerxes (during which he did in fact punish the Athenians—by burning it down—but [[Pyrrhic Victory|ended up wondering whether it was worth the trouble]]).
** The Athenians had something of an inversion during the reign of Darius: When the Ionian city of Miletos rebelled and set up a democracy, Athens set 1,000 hoplites to support the Milesians against the Persians. The Athenian brigade was so successful, they managed not only to (temporarily) rescue Miletos, they also marched up to Sardis, the capital of the Persian satrapy (province) of Lydia, and torched it. Upon receiving word of the attack, Darius (after having a fit) asked, "Who ''are'' the Athenians?" Presumably after getting an answer, he is said to have shot an arrow into the sky and said, "God grant that I may punish the Athenians." According to Herodotus at any rate, this led to the ill-fated Persian expedition at Marathon and eventually the Persian invasion of Greece under Xerxes (during which he did in fact punish the Athenians—by burning it down—but [[Pyrrhic Victory|ended up wondering whether it was worth the trouble]]).
* [[World War II]].
* [[World War II]]. The USSR decided to conquer Finland. Tiny country, no big deal. No need to, say, plan for the campaign stretching into winter and give your troops proper winter gear. Or to give them uniforms that don't stand out so completely against the pure white snow. After all, it's not like the Finns are going to suit up in nice warm uniforms that are also totally white and then ski around the country turning your troops into target practice... right?
** The Winter War. The USSR decided to conquer Finland. Tiny country, no big deal. No need to, say, plan for the campaign stretching into winter and give your troops proper winter gear. Or to give them uniforms that don't stand out so completely against the pure white snow. After all, it's not like the Finns are going to suit up in nice warm uniforms that are also totally white and then ski around the country turning your troops into target practice... right?
** And USSR, at least in Hitler's eyes. Partially because of its somewhat poor performance with Finland.
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*** Strategically, this was an obvious failure: if the Soviets had ''really'' won they would have treated Finland the way they treated Estonia, thus the main objective was not achieved. And what was gained (a few hundred more miles of wilderness in front of Leningrad), turned out to be not much use in stopping a modern army or even the Finnish one (the Finns only called a halt to offensive operations in the Continuation War for the sake of diplomacy and while they probably couldn't have taken Leningrad, could have been a lot more trouble) but aside from their casualties they made sure that the Finns wanted payback. Finland didn't quite hold its own, but got what it wanted, which was to survive.
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{{quote|[[Adolf Hitler|"We only have to kick in the front door and the whole rotten structure will collapse."]]}}
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*** However, both times the USSR took on Finland, the Soviets technically won no matter how badly the Finns bled them, in that Finland ended up ceding territory to the USSR each time. It wasn't even a [[Pyrrhic Victory]] by Soviet standards since even the massive disparity of losses was, ultimately, ''tiny'' given the massive reserves the USSR brought to bear. If anything, the Red Army emerged from it stronger: just like with the Far East campaign, the practical challenges leading to early failures became reasons to improve equipment (from uniforms to tanks) and organization and refine tactics, then opportunities for extreme field tests of those improvements.
*** Rather ironically making some of the same mistakes Russia did when invading Finland.
*** Thus it made Soviet Union also look weaker than it was, at least in Hitler's eyes. Partially because of its somewhat poor performance with Finland. Rather ironically, leading him to make some of the same mistakes, even though German representatives had opportunities to learn from both sides some things the Red Army have learned there.
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*** What people forget when bringing this up, however, is that the so-called "poor performance" didn't matter. Both instances the USSR took on Finland, the Soviets won no matter how badly the Finns bled them. Finland ended up ceding territory to the USSR each time. Territory they still hold to this day. It wasn't even a [[Pyrrhic Victory]] by Soviet standards since even the massive disparity of losses was, ultimately, ''tiny'' given the massive reserves the USSR brought to bear. So in a recursive case of this trope, modern internet audiences go "LOL, Russia lost against Finland," ironically underestimating the ''larger'' power.
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{{quote|'''[[Adolf Hitler]]''': We only have to kick in the front door and the whole rotten structure will collapse. }}
⚫
*If the Soviets had ''really'' won they would have treated Finland the way they treated Estonia. Furthermore Finland got what it wanted, which was to survive, while what Russia wanted, which was a few hundred more miles of wilderness in front of Leningrad, turned out to be not much use in stopping a modern army or even the Finnish one(the Finns only called a halt to offensive operations in the Continuation War for the sake of diplomacy and while they probably couldn't have taken Leningrad, could have been a lot more trouble)but aside from their casualties they made sure that the Finns wanted payback.
*When Maria Theresa's father died and she took the throne, the princes of Europe thought she was no more then a [[Damsel in Distress]]. What they found was that she was a [[Lady of War]].
* When Maria Theresa's father died and she took the throne, the princes of Europe thought she was no more then a [[Damsel in Distress]]. What they found was that she was a [[Lady of War]].
* Rudyard Kipling (somewhere or other) told this story about how western sailors in Japanese ports would have a wild [[Bar Brawl]]. And then some nice polite little cops would walk in. The sailors would turn at them and laugh. Only to find that these cops were all former Samurai...
* [[Rudyard Kipling]] (somewhere or other) told this story about how western sailors in Japanese ports would have a wild [[Bar Brawl]]. And then some nice polite little cops would walk in. The sailors would turn at them and laugh. Only to find that these cops were all former Samurai...
* The Jews in the the [[Jewish Revolts]] were a tiny province that gave ''Rome'' the hardest fight she had had for ages. So hard that just subjugating them was considered worthy of a triumph and made the commander [[The Emperor]].
* The Jews in the the [[Jewish Revolts]] were a tiny province that gave ''Rome'' the hardest fight she had had for ages. So hard that just subjugating them was considered worthy of a triumph and made the commander [[The Emperor]].
* In the 12th century, the Khwarezmian emperor who ruled much of Greater Iran, thinking that Genghis Khan was only the leader of a small, weak group of nomads, killed and shaved his messengers to humiliate him. The Mongols responded by completely demolishing his empire and adding it to their own in a campaign that was brutal even by their own standards.
* In the 12th century, the Khwarezmian emperor who ruled much of Greater Iran, thinking that Genghis Khan was only the leader of a small, weak group of nomads, killed and shaved his messengers to humiliate him. The Mongols responded by completely demolishing his empire and adding it to their own in a campaign that was brutal even by their own standards. In large part because they ''also'' have underestimated how troublesome the locals can be. Instead of an expected limited and straightforward action (yet another punitive raid against yet another depraved envoy-killer, and perhaps a small conquest) they met [[The Hashshashin]]s and found themselves in an entirely new area of the "ugly mess" scale - somewhere between an anti-insurgency campaign and Inquisition.
** And we're talking about an army that considered dragging your enemies to death from horseback a legitimate combat tactic. Not even just your enemies, but their peasants as well.
* In November 2010, two drunken yobs thought that it would be a good idea to start a fight with three men they met in the street. Unfortunately for the two, the three people that they picked a fight with were George Cross winners Peter Norton of the British Army and Matt Croucher of the Royal Marines plus Victoria Cross winner Mark Donaldson of the Australian Special Air Service Regiment. It didn't end well for the both of them. Read about it here: http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/campaigns/our_boys/3227540/Military-heroes-in-yobs-rout.html
* In November 2010, two drunken yobs thought that it would be a good idea to start a fight with three men they met in the street. Unfortunately for the two, the three people that they picked a fight with were George Cross winners Peter Norton of the British Army and Matt Croucher of the Royal Marines plus Victoria Cross winner Mark Donaldson of the Australian Special Air Service Regiment. It didn't end well for the both of them. Read about it here: http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/campaigns/our_boys/3227540/Military-heroes-in-yobs-rout.html
** It's actually a rather common occurence for thieves to horribly underestimate the people they rob. On any given occassion, that random passerby they attempt to hold up might just be a [[Badass Normal]] or packing heat...
** It's actually a rather common occurence for thieves to horribly underestimate the people they rob. On any given occassion, that random passerby they attempt to hold up might just be a [[Badass Normal]] or packing heat...
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