Automoderated users, Autopatrolled users, Bureaucrats, Comment administrators, Confirmed users, Moderators, Rollbackers, Administrators
214,385
edits
Kingdom Hearts II/Headscratchers: Difference between revisions
pointed the "CoM" links at the desired page instead of at the disambiguation page
m (update links) |
(pointed the "CoM" links at the desired page instead of at the disambiguation page) |
||
Line 3:
** Because [[Fridge Brilliance|they never saw Xehanort's Heartless in the first game]]. All they heard was that "Ansem" was the one behind everything, so they assumed it was the real Ansem.
* What is with Sora's personality change anyway? He's spent sleeping for a year, obviously grown up and all that, but he's become somewhat more childish. Replaying through Chain of Memories and Kingdom Hearts 1, I can see a sort of jarring contrast between the two. In Kingdom Hearts he is a naïve but optimistic and light-hearted teenager who is nothing more determined then seeking out his friends. He seems a lot more straightforward and no-nonsense in his tone and dialogue, [[What the Hell, Hero?|calling out Riku on his methods for one thing]], and doesn't hesitate to show himself a bit tough and not someone to argue with (eg. Arguing with Donald over some issues early on in the game). Chain of Memories is another particular example, as he suddenly takes on this more dark and forceful personality when he starts to realize his goals. Of course, one could say that Chain of Memories doesn't count because of the fact {{spoiler|that he loses his memories in Castle Oblivion anyway, so he wouldn't remember acting like that}}. But either way, Sora's sudden extreme optimism and childish behavior in most if not all situations bugs this realist troper somewhat. He just seems unrealistic in the way he acts [[Sliding Scale of Realistic Versus Fantastic|within the Kingdom Hearts universe anyway]].
** Ah, this. The current theory most people agree on right now is that for the last part of KH 1, all of [[Kingdom Hearts: Chain of Memories|KH:CoM]], and for the majority of KH 2, Sora is essentially a kind of reverse Heartless, in other words a heart that has formed a body around itself, and as such acts on pure emotion all the time. Why? Well, remember when Sora killed himself in KH 1 to free Kairi? Doing that caused Roxas to be born and Sora to be turned into a Shadow. Kairi later uses her princess of heart powers to give Sora a new body, but Roxas didn't come back. And, well, look at Roxas. What is the main thing he does throughout our time playing as him? Think. So yeah, apparently Roxas took all of Sora's critical thinking skills with him, causing Sora to act on spur of the moment things and act really out of character (telling Kairi, a girl he couldn't even look at earlier in the game, that she'd be in his way, falling for the Castle Oblivion plan hook, line, and sinker, etc.)
*** But Roxas and Sora remerge at the beginning of 2, right at the end of the prologue. They ''had'' to merge for Sora to wake up. So him being a "reverse-Heartless" in 2 (though I agree he was for [[Kingdom Hearts: Chain of Memories|KH:CoM]] and the last bit of 1) doesn't work.
*** Actually, I always assumed that Roxas was still sort of separate until the [[Battle in the Center of the Mind]] he had with Sora and had been remerging very slowly before that. Who says that they were totally together the second the Prologue ended? As far as I know, they were the first nobody and somebody to reunite, and Roxas was probably fighting it the entire time. Somewhat tragic in hindsight.
**** While mentally Roxas might have been fighting it, if the "Sora is a Heartless" theory is true, it would only have lasted for the end of the first game, and through Chain, because at the beginning of II, he and Roxas ''DID'' re-join physically.
Line 110:
** Hm? I've always thought that Mickey and the knowledgeable thinks that they have no emotion but that they actually do... I've never thought it could be any other way... I think I'll stay with my view of the thing. It makes the Organization sad and great anti-villains. Granted though, I am an actor-in-training and it is quite possible to pretend emotion even if you feel nothing at all. Still, I stick to my version.
*** However, even the smartest, most morally straight characters can be wrong. They made that a point with Ansem, & it was actually expressed several other times in the Disney worlds: Simba's self-doubt, Beast's distrust of his friends, Hercules refusing to stop pleasing the crowd & therefore leading to the deaths of everyone in the Coliseum (off-screen but implied), etc.
*** Besides: 1. DiZ {{spoiler|a.k.a. Ansem was exiled into darkness by the original six. Being betrayed tends to make you bitter}}; 2. King Mickey was in Castle Oblivion -- at the least, Riku told him what happened; and 3. the OXIII were probably active before KH:CoM. It doesn't seem too unlikely to me that DiZ, King Mickey, and Yen Sid had plenty to base their "OXIII = ''evil''"-theory on.
** My view is that the Nobodies have residual emotions left over from their human selves but can't fully experience new emotions. For instance -- they remember feeling love because they experienced it, so they can simulate it to a degree, but they can't create new emotions. It'd be like cutting off your supply of food -- you'd be able to live off of body fat for a while, but eventually you'd run out. This fits in with the higher-ranking Organization Members being more cruel and less empathetic -- they've been separated from their bodies longer, while the newer members like Roxas, Axel, and the like are still able to draw on their remembered emotions.
*** I think that they can actually feel emotions; it's just that they can't ''fully'' feel them, and when they experience a real emotion, it's a big deal to them. Example: In Chain of Memories, after he sets Naminé free, Axel sort of does a take, puts his hand where his heart should be, and muses to himself "Wait -- I'm ''enjoying'' this! You guys really are something else." He's got no reason to "fake" the emotion to himself.
Line 136:
**** Because their story takes place between the first and second Aladdin movie. And just to make this point clearer: if Mulan's world was consumed by the Heartless in the first game (and it was, because Mushu was a summon in that game), why does she act like she's seeing them for the first time in Kingdom Hearts 2? Why don't Timon and Pumbaa remember the Heartless, or the Pride Lands being destroyed? It's not just Ariel. ''Nobody'' in the Disney worlds seems to remember any specific details about the first game apart from having befriended Sora. In cases like Ariel, they're even clueless about who it was they fought the last time. Maybe it's a clumsy attempt to shoehorn the Disney stories into the game without changing them too much, but since the only reason anyone remembers Sora is because Naminé spent a year making it so, selective memory loss is a perfectly good WMG to explain it.
*** Naminé can only affect Sora's memories and those aligned with him. How could she affect ''everyone'' on a world that Sora has never set foot on, like the Land of Dragons? I think this is just a plot hole. Jafar and Iago get locked in a lamp in Kingdom Hearts. Iago escapes from the lamp shortly after the beginning of 2. Abu recognizes the lamp. There's no doubt that they remember the events of the original game.
**** Jafar got trapped in a lamp at the end of the first movie. Iago escapes the lamp shortly after the start of the second movie. Abu recognizes the lamp, in the second movie. There's no doubt that they remember the first ''movie'', plus Sora, Donald, and Goofy. The whole Kingdom Hearts 2 Agrabah level is just retelling the plot of [[Returnof Jafar]]. And my theory isn't that Naminé ''erased'' all their memories of everything during KH:CoM. It's that Naminé's restoration between the games is the only reason the Disney movie characters ''remember'' him. When all the worlds got restored at the end of the first game, their memories must've gotten reset-buttoned as well (otherwise, everyone would've already known about the Heartless in KH2). Restoring the worlds might've erased some of their memories, and Naminé accidentally helped put them back together while trying to undo the damage she did. But the end result still left some holes when it came to other events that didn't involve Sora, like Ursula and the Heartless.
**** The movies aren't canon to the games unless the games specifically say so. It would make no sense for the original Aladdin move to be canon since, again, Jafar gets turned into a genie and trapped in the lamp at the end of the ''first game'' (in a scene very similar to the movie). And the events of the first game aren't otherwise that close to the first movie.
**** Who's talking about "canon"? I'm talking about memories. The Disney worlds, post-Kingdom Hearts 1, do not clearly remember the Heartless invasion. That half the characters aren't utterly shell shocked from having experienced their own deaths is proof enough of that: if we need something more direct, there's the Land of Dragons and Pride Lands as proof that the worlds consumed by the Heartless don't ''remember'' being consumed by the Heartless. So why can't the same be true of all the Disney worlds? The [[Reset Button]] WAS pushed for the worlds that were destroyed, there's no denying that. If the [[Reset Button]] was actually pushed all around, and Naminé's year-long work in Twilight Town redrew Sora and company back into their memories, then that explains why they remember the trio, but nothing specific to the first Kingdom Hearts. At best, they might remember most of their adventures from the first game, but still have gaps big enough for Ursula to go right back to being a sea witch that Ariel's never met.
Line 286:
***** Was it ever stated that Emblem heartless =\= Nobody? I thought the only criteria for Nobodies were having a strong will.
* Relating to the fandom, it bugs the heck out of me that fanfic writers insist on making Org XIII members "just misunderstood." They were ''evil'', people. EVIL. Let's see: The original six, in life, performed dangerous experiments on ''living hearts'' and created the emblems. As Nobodies, they tried to turn innocent people into Heartless in order to collect hearts and harvest useful Nobodies. Remember Port Royal? Beast's Castle? Yeah. Their goals might be sympathetic, but their methods were villainous to the core.
** This. I'm also annoyed by how fangirls go "ZOMG Yen Sid/Mickey/Donald and Goofy were manipulating and lying to poor Sora in KH2 to heartlessly kill the Org XIII rather than listeeen!" First, and I admit this is a theory, Sora had already met some of them in KH:CoM. Even if he doesn't remember them, it still could've made him subcounsiously go OXIII = bad without reflecting why. Second, it's friggin Yen Sid, the mentor of King Mickey and a man worthy of respect who seems to know what he's talking about. Thirdly, we have what you already pointed out, namely what they did in those worlds -- it's not too unlikely to assume Yen Sid and the others have seen similar things in the past. Fourthly, Sora's first personal impression of them isn't a good one. Why? Because in Hollow Bastion, ''they send in Nobodies to attack the city'' (and before that, he fought Xemnas in KH:FM). Last, Sora never gets a chance to "listen to the other side" ''because OXIII didn't bother with telling him anything!'' In most of the game, they have plenty of opportunity to "give their side of the story". What do they do? Manipulate people, mock him, refer to him as Roxas, lets a Heartless/Nobody attack him and/or the town, or personally attack him. Don't get me wrong, I greatly sympathize with some of them, but I can't blame Sora for going into defensive-ready-to-attack mode whenever he sees them.
*** The bit about referring to him as Roxas may not be their fault, seeing as it's a distinct possibility that they actually see Roxas when they look at him. Whether this is because they're nobodies or because of {{spoiler|Xion's shape shifting properties,}} or if this theory has merit isn't clear.
** If you saw a group of people who skulk around in black longcoats appearing out of darkness itself and commanding the Heartless alongside some utterly bizarre, boneless white creatures to attack random people who announce, in no uncertain terms, that they ''want to manipulate you to their own ends'', it wouldn't take much of an intuitive leap to correctly guess "bad guys".
Line 428:
** Herc is always busy either fighting the Hydra or keeping monsters from invading the surface, or rebuilding the Coliseum. Am I the only one who has ever read the dialogue?
*** Except when he's in Emo Mode or barely able to stand from exhaustion.
* Does anyone feel like featuring Disney worlds is becoming pointless? After the first installment, the Disney worlds feel like they are just fillers. In the first game, Disney stuff really did have some importance, like how important the Disney princesses are and sealing keyholes to protect the world from destruction. In
** It's already kind of hard because the [[Guest Star Party Member]] can't follow you out of the world. It's meddling.
** There were ''no'' Final Fantasy cameos in Days, that right there proves that the Disney cameos are the more important of the two.
Line 471:
** 1. No, 2. No that's not good enough, 3. Not all of us can afford a Japanese [[PlayStation 2]], not all of us are capable of ordering stuff online, and oh yeah, not all of us are capable of reading Japanese.
*** It does not even matter if is in japanese because of the english voice actors.
** Europe didn't even get
*** Hey, be glad they haven't announced a Final Mix version of 358/2 Days, space limitations and all.
** Never! As said before, some of us can't read Japanese, and it wasn't really a problem with KH:FM since it added so little with all the recolors and all, but it just got downright ridiculous with KHIIFM+ by adding not only new keyblades but around 14+ bosses, another form, and more plot elements that show up later.
Line 529:
*** Its not really [[Chronic Backstabbing Disorder]] since his loyalty to Master Xehanort/{{spoiler|Terranort}}/Xemnas never changed over the twelve year period we've seen him; he's just [[The Dragon]], and enough of a douchebag to be a really, really, ''really'' [[Bad Boss]] to the lower ranked members of the [[Quirky Miniboss Squad]] insofar as informing them of stuff and goading them on in unfortunate directions goes.
**** Well, the Organization is basically built on [[Chronic Backstabbing Disorder]] because its stated goal, getting hearts to all its members, is complete bull and only the top two know it. The difference between Xigbar and Xemnas in this regard, is that while Xemnas is content with letting the plans proceed, using a bizarre combination of a [[Xanatos Roulette]] and [[Xanatos Speed Chess]], Xigbar basically screws with everyone whenever possible, openly telling everyone what the plans are, and how it's gonna screw them over, then laughing at them when they don't get it. I think on some level he likes being in on the joke, but he likes everyone else not being in on it more.
* On second thought, why does Braig remember ''anything'' about Xehanort's past? If memories work both ways in the KH-verse (i.e. if you forget about someone, they forget about you, and vice versa), then all traces of Xehanort's {{spoiler|and Terra's}} past existence should have vanished as soon as {{spoiler|Terranort stabbed himself}}, just like what happened to Sora post-KH:CoM {{spoiler|and to Xion post-358/2 Days}}. Yet Braig seems to remember {{spoiler|both Master Xehanort ''and'' Terra}} just fine. Does the two-way-amnesia effect only happen with Naminé's powers?
** That does seem to be more the result of Naminé's powers than anything else.
** To be fair, {{spoiler|Xion was a bad choice to put in, mainly because she wasn't a normal Nobody or anything; she was made from Sora's memories. The reason no one remembers her is because she wasn't really her own person -- she was a doll who bases herself off of Sora's memories.}}
Line 551:
** YMMV, naturally, but you're not alone. KHII is my favorite in the series.
*** (I'm the OP) It isn't actually my favorite (as Birth By Sleep takes the cake there), but it is the second.
** I feel that Kingdom Hearts II didn't live up to its full potential. It was too short, and a lot of the worlds felt thrown in. Plus it didn't have the pure undiluted awesomeness that was Hollow Bastion in the first game, and ended up lacking much of the emotional resonance of the first game. They could've done some awesome things with the Organization, but they sort of ended up falling flat. If they had found a way to consolidate and combine elements of [[Kingdom Hearts: Chain of Memories|KH:CoM]] with Kingdom Hearts II with Days coming later, I think many more people would have come away feeling they had a much fuller, more complete, and much more awesome game. (For the record, I immensely enjoyed Kingdom Hearts II, especially on my first play through (especially for the air of mystery in the prologue) but it didn't hold up as well on subsequent playthroughs as the first game did. The first game had both mystery and emotion, but the second game only mystery, and when that's gone there's naught left but a good story, albeit one with lots of unfulfilled potential.)
* How come the Organization didn't go to the [[Lion King]] World?
** They probably did at an earlier point, found it to be full of savannah animals, and decided it wasn't doing anything for their plans.
Line 557:
* Why the heeeeelll is Axel so popular? When I played the game, I expected him to have an enormous impact on the story and to be somewhat of the badarse judging from the amount of squee he seems to generate from fangirls. [[Memetic Mutation|I was sorely disappointed.]] Not only did Axel's character only have relevance up to the end of the prologue (for chrissakes), all he did was appear at inconvenient moments and annoy me with his [[Verbal Tic|stupid catchphrase]].
** He's a [[Base Breaker]]. Whether you find him a sexy badass or completely annoying is a matter of YMMV. He is, however, very relevant... his defection from the Organization sets quite a few things in motion, and his {{spoiler|death}} is the thing that finally awakens Roxas.
** Speaking for myself, back when we first got information about sequels to Kingdom Hearts, I remember Axel being one of the very first things revealed about Chain of Memories. A screenshot of him was shown, so aside from Roxas and Xenmas in Final Mix (which never came to America, mind you), he was the first indication of something greater than the Heartless, and carried a lot of excitement with him in the time up to [[Kingdom Hearts: Chain of Memories|KH:CoM]]'s release. He was also pretty much the only member of the Organization in [[Kingdom Hearts: Chain of Memories|KH:CoM]] who wasn't totally evil (aside from Lexaeus, who was just boring), making him a very likable character. So for me at least, Axel wasn't just a character, but the embodiment of the future of the series, and he lived up to expectations.
* Why does Twilight Town even exist? We first saw it as a reflection of the memories of the dark side of Sora's soul, okay. Next, we saw it as a computer simulation made to house Roxas. Strange, but fine. And then... there's also a real one. So does Sora have [[Reality Warper]] powers and ''created'' it with his twisted memories? is he secretly psychic, and had a premonition?
** No, it always existed, and the computer simulation housing Roxas reflected it. The illusion reflecting the Dark Side of Sora's soul showed Twilight Town because, as 358/2 Days shows, at that point Roxas (i.e., the other part of Sora moving about at that point) had spent most of his out-of-castle time there, as well as already forming his mental association of "clocktower+ice cream sharing=friendship" which was the strongest psuedoemotion he had.
| |||