Persona 2/Headscratchers

Bugs the heck out of me that Jun came to get his mask, which means you get has Ultimate Persona a different way. But something about this bugs me as well... Why doesn't this grant him his Ultimate Persona?!?
- Wasn't his Persona ability taken away after he remembered and stopped being the Joker, so he couldn't upgrade his Persona then? (IIRC)
  - SO PUT THE MASK ON! HE DOESN'T JOIN UNTIL AFTER MT. IWATO, WHEN THEY KNOW THAT A) JUN HAS HIS MASK, AND B) THEY GRANT ULTIMATE PERSONAE!!!
  - Woah, no need to yell. Maybe Jun didn't know they granted Ultimate Personas?
  - Eikichi, Lisa, Maya, and Tatsuya did. Unless the player didn't know because Viewers are Morons. They could've put four and one together and told him. Anyway, if you find the fifth hidden room, you'll see that Jun came back for his mask. Before anyone mentions it, losing his mask would be like losing his watch. Four and one makes five. Maybe someone started a rumour it didn't make five?
  - I remember hearing (but have never tested) that you still need to get the mask to get Jun's ultimate. Someone should try to confirm. Either way, it's not that you get the mask, then instantly get a new persona. For the rest of the party Philemon still has to hand them out, and in that scene he had to give Jun his persona powers back in the first place. Jun still had to deal with his issues, so he wasn't ready for his ultimate at that point. So he gets it after a bit more character development. So no, the masks don't really grant the ultimates directly, and there's no way the party could've known that's what made Philemon give them upgrades. As far as they know Phil's just in the mood to give them upgrades.
  - No, they still need the masks equipped. I wouldn't mind if Philemon used Black Condor's mask after the Aquarius Shrine business. And no, use Hermes in the final boss of the Aquarius Shrine, then "fulfill requirements" in the Velvet Room.
  - ...the masks are key items and cannot be equipped. I'm not sure what you're saying here. And I know perfectly well how to get Chronos, thank you. I never gave a hint I didn't. As for why Philemon didn't show up for Jun...I don't know. Because he's a lazy bastard and was off getting drunk with Nyarlathotep. But giving Jun Chronos from the beginning wouldn't make Chronos an ultimate at all, he'd just be Jun's starter and Jun would never upgrade, which more or less translates to no character development, so I'm really not sure what you want here.
  - Nyarlathotep --> Chronos?
  - According to the Megami Tensei wiki, you need the masks. I'm saying: it took Character Development for Philemon to use the masks to grant Ultimate Personae, didn't it? Jun had development, but Philemon did nothing of the sort with the Black Condor mask.
  - The implication I got from that sequence was that Jun came and got his mask at least some time before the main party did, with the implication that the Black Condor mask was used to make the Joker mask. As far as I know, you never get the Black Condor mask (as the chest that would have it is empty when you come through, and you don't get it when Jun joins) I could be wrong though.
  - That defeats the point of the Masquerade - a blank white, adult version of the original five-person clique.
  - I'm not sure what you were referring to exactly, but notice that Joker and his outfit doesn't really "match" the rest of the Masquerade, both members and executives. Different type of outfit (white "school" uniform as opposed to the robes that most of minions wear and the grey/dark coats and colored scarves that the executives wear) and noticeably different style of masks. I doubt any thing that the Joker does/wears will "defeat" the purpose of his own little cult.
  - His own little cult? A small personal cult couldn't end the world by forcing a conspiracy theorist to stab someone, so that... god, this game is weird.
  - Except it could, because it spread rumours about how that would cause the end of the world in a city where rumours were becoming reality.
  - Said city had most of it's inhabitants joining them. And as for what I said first, it defeats the point of the plot - the Masquerade are meant to be white versions of the original one.
  - Excuse me if I come off as rude, but when was this said? All that is said is that the Masked Circle was a corrupted version of the original group, with the Masked Four being basically being "opposites" of the other main four cast members, devoted to fulfilling the prophecies of In-Lakech. The color of the masks isn't really important. (And Joker's mask and outfit are mostly white anyway)
  - BTW, who's gonna change the Masquerade to the Masked Circle?
If Apollo is fire-based, then why is he weak to ice? Shouldn't the ice melt?
- Apollo is a sun god- according to The Magic Roundabout, you can freeze the sun with magic. Y'know, like Bufu and Lily's Jail?
- Oh, that makes more sense. Although, what's Lily's Jail?
  - Release Jail is the ultimate Ice Spell in the same vein as Deadly Burn, Twinkle Nebula, etc. in the game found only on Ellen's ultimate persona Gabriel which itself is only found in the game's Bonus Dungeon.
  - Oh, ok.
Why was Hitler Bowdlerised and the swastikas changed to crosses in the psp version? its not like either is being portrayed as good, hitler is still evil...
- New laws in Japan.
- I also heard that the changes are more accurate to history, so it might partly also be that.
  - It's more Japan than America - today, you wouldn't be able to get away with someone like, say, Michael Jackson.
    - Speaking of which...in Shin Megami Tensei II, you encounter a dancer called Mr Thriller who bears a resemblance to...yeah. He says something like feeling like a kid in a candy store. Yeah.
      - I didn't know that. But references are allowed - as are dead crazy people. coughcoughMaster Therioncoughcough
Why are the characters shadows members of the Masquerade?
- Because they were created through a rumor that the main characters were members of the Masked Circle/Masquerade and were responsible for the bombings. After defeating King Leo, Maya has the children they saved spread a counter rumor. The counter rumor stopped the party from being "converted" to the Masked Circle, but the original rumor created doubles who were members.