Topic on User talk:DocColress

Just out of curiosity, how familiar are you with the Ace Attorney series? There are around three characters that I think meet the criteria for Complete Monster that haven't been listed yet, though I of course want to hear your thoughts on them. I'm only going to be going over one for now as he always stuck out to me as being among the nastiest of the series' villains and it always bothered me that he was cut back at TV Tropes: Redd White.

Hailing from the first game in the series, Redd White is a CEO who at first seems like a goofy, flamboyant man and comes off as merely obnoxious, but the man has a much darker side to him. In reality, his company Bluecorp is more or less a company that specializes in blackmail: he obtains information on powerful individuals and companies that would ruin them if it got out to the public and uses them to do his bidding. Many of the people he has blackmailed have committed suicide, which Redd couldn't give a damn about as long as he gets to line his pockets with tons of money and lord it over everyone around him. Whenever the protagonist Phoenix Wright's mentor Mia Fey tries to take his company down, he learns that she's onto him and murders her for her trouble and goes on to create false evidence that makes her kid sister Maya the prime suspect, though he later shifts the blame onto Phoenix himself whenever Phoenix confronts him personally. And because Redd has dirt on the chief prosecutor and possibly the Judge himself, he almost succeeds in getting Phoenix acquitted before he's able to make a comeback and present the evidence showing that not only did Redd murder Mia, but that he was responsible for the suicides of many others as well. It should also be noted that in the past, he leaked information that a spirit medium (Who was Mia and Maya's mother) was assisting in the investigation of a murder to the public, destroying not just the medium's reputation, but her entire family name as well.

In conclusion, Redd's crimes consist of blackmailing countless individuals, driving many of those same people to suicide, soiling the good name of a spirit medium clan, murdering a woman who sought to expose his illicit activities, and attempting to pin the murder on her teenage sister and later her apprentice. All in all, he has one hell of a rap sheet, and I'd make the claim that he's up there with the series' nastiest villains (including Manfred von Karma, who he shares the same game with). He lacks any and all redeeming features, as he only cares about himself and the money and power he can aquire, and knows damn well that the law can't touch him and demonstrates it by punching Phoenix and is able to have him put on trial just by his command alone.

I feel he's an easy keep, though I wonder what your stance on him is.

Not sure if blackmail counts as heinous by the standards of Ace Attorney, though. Aside from his one murder and all the suicides, are there any more deaths he's complicit in? Is he aware that his blackmail victims will kill themselves, thus leaving their money up for grabs or something? Small details like that might push beyond just "scumbag" and into CM territory.

From what I remember there was no implication that he was intentionally driving people to suicide to get at money they'd leave behind. Basically, he'd keep people in line so they would be forced to surrender money to him, give him anything he wanted, that sort of thing. I'm not sure if he intentionally drove them to suicide, but he certainly doesn't care that they do it and is implicated as still being responsible for their deaths all the same.

The problem is that suicide is a choice on the person committing it's part. Pointing the finger at the guy who ruined them doesn't sit right with me, even though he is at least partially culpable.

Maybe I'm letting my personal views on suicide get in the way, but the way I view it is that if you antagonize and hurt someone to the point to where they commit suicide to escape the pain you put them through, you're no better than a murderer since they would still be alive if it weren't for what you did to them.

That's a solid point too. If you could do a writeup for this guy, it could probably pass for YMMV, but I'll have to determine if he goes on the main page or not.

Well, Redd DOES have a writeup on the YMMV page of the Phoenix Wright trilogy of Ace Attorney games... but it's a bunch of arguing. The kind of writeup I'd go for will be listed down would go as follows:

• Redd White from Case 1-2 seems like a flamboyant, clownish buffoon on the surface, but in reality is a money-hungry, self-serving, absolutely ruthless weasel of a man who is responsible for the suffering of countless people. His company Bluecorp specializes in digging up dirt on influential people such as celebrities, members of law enforcement, and other such people so Redd can relentlessly hound them to do his bidding for the sake of boosting his ego, ruining their lives to the point to where a number of his blackmail victims have committed suicide. Whenever Phoenix's mentor Mia Fey was in the middle of collecting evidence to take Redd to court with, he caught on to her and savagely murdered her, going on to pin the blame on her teenaged sister Maya and later on, Phoenix himself just on word alone thanks to his connections with law enforcement. Not just responsible for the direct death of a good woman and ultimately responsible for countless other lives lost, Redd also ruined the name of the Fey clan of spirit mediums by leaking information of Mia's mother's involvement with the police to the public. Thanks to his colossal ego and lack of empathy towards anybody else, Redd has ruined countless lives in pursuit of money and power.

Is this good? I feel it's a bit long compared to others on the page, but this is the best I've got if we were to keep him. Funnily enough, he's not only responsible just for these crimes, but for also indirectly corrupting Mia's boyfriend Diego Armando, a former Defense Attorney who turned into a hateful, bitter shell of his former self whenever he learned of her death, causing him to pin the blame on Phoenix for not protecting her. Given that it's indirect, I'm not sure if it would belong on his list of crimes, but I thought it was worth bringing up. :p

From what I've read up from here and elsewhere, Redd seems to be a thoroughly toxic person who radiates that toxicity around towards others and destroys their lives. Though not quite as heinous as other villains like Manfred Von Karma, Kristof Gavin, or Dahlia Hawethorne, I can see him making the cut. At least on YMMV - how's the writeup there "a bunch of arguing"? I'd better check...

I'm a bit frustrated right now because of how crappily CM is getting handled on the Villains Wiki. Ghetsis got cut AGAIN because his off-screen saving of the Shadow Triad's lives is supposedly a clear PetTheDog moment, and G4 Tirek seems to have disappeared too. This is why I'd rather rely on this wiki for clarity on this damn trope.

It was basically people going back and forth about how Redd was not a monster because him murdering Mia and framing Phoenix was justified because he didn't want to be arrested, and other people saying he was one because he wouldn't have to murder Mia and frame Phoenix if he hadn't been up to his eyeballs in awful activities, and saying that him knowingly sending an innocent man likely to his death if he got a guilty verdict was still CM material. I'm going to have to edit it later.

And oh yeah, Villains Wiki's handling of the trope is AWFUL. What I think is worse is that freaking OROCHIMARU has been cut from it, and is a mandated cut there. I really wish I was kidding. Mainly, it's because they say that he has redeeming qualities and actually went as far as to use NON CANON material to disqualify him. Just... just look at his talk page, it's beyond stupid.

I think Redd is either a CM or a 99% one depending on who you ask, but he certainly seems to be close in the trope's territory enough that regarding him as one on this wiki would not be inappropriate.

Oh geez, even TV TROPES hasn't cut Orochimaru from the trope! What the Hell? And to say nothing of the guy who argued that Frollo isn't a CM because of interpretations of him that are flat out untrue based on what's actually there in the movie, all because he seems to share some views disturbingly similar to his own.

So to clarify: Are you okay with Redd going on the main page, or should he just be on the Ace Attorney YMMV page?

And yeah, basically they said that "We're correcting TV Trope's mistake" in regards to Orochimaru (Mainly it's because he chose to help save the world, though he was clearly doing it so he could continue his experiments and not because he had turned good or anything). I think that's what made me ultimately give up on that site. I won't deny that TV Tropes has made some incredibly questionable cuts (Ghetsis, Hopper, Majora, looking at you guys!), but keeping Orochimaru is in no way a mistake.

Are you talking about Weedle Mchairybug?

Yes, that's him. A seriously disturbed individual, that one.

I think Redd is either a CM or a 99% one depending on who you ask, but he certainly seems to be close in the trope's territory enough that regarding him as one on this wiki would not be inappropriate.

Oh geez, even TV TROPES hasn't cut Orochimaru from the trope! What the Hell? And to say nothing of the guy who argued that Frollo isn't a CM because of interpretations of him that are flat out untrue based on what's actually there in the movie, all because he seems to share some views disturbingly similar to his own.

Hey, after looking back on the Pokémon page for Monsters, this may sound incredibly weird but hear me out! Did you ever do the Pokestar Studios segments back on Black 2 or White 2? Because I think I found a potential candidate in the villain of the Mystery Doors of the Magical Land films: Queen Bellelba, an evil sorceress played by the gym leader Sabrina.

From what I remember, her whole thing is that she uses strange doors to trap people in her world, and will drain the life out of them or enslave them, and attempts to do this to the spoiled prince/princess protagonist and already did it to a man turned into her plush doll gatekeeper and reveals that she ultimately has plans to enslave humanity as well.

I know it's weird suggesting someone who ISN'T Ghetsis, but given that unlike the other mains series games' standard villain and Well-Intentioned Extremist villains, Bellelba is an evil witch played dead straight and is a fictional villain within the context of the Pokémon universe as well. So what are your thoughts on her?

Queen Bellelba was actually cited as an example once on TV Tropes before deletion. The thing is, she's one of those cases where it's better to cite her in YMMV rather than give her a writeup. If she's a fictional villain within the context of the Pokemon universe, then she fails the heinous standard when the work features real villains in the Pokemon universe (Ghetsis being featured in this very game, too!) doing heinous shit that effects real people rather than movie characters. So mentioning that Sabrina plays a CM in the Magical Land films is okay for YMMV below Ghetsis' entry, but cannot be on the main trope page for these clear reasons.

Alright then! I can only wonder if we'll ever get someone as bad as Ghetsis in a Pokemon game again. I'm not the type who believes that a Complete Monster makes a work better and I'm sorry if I ever made you think that was my thought process, but I just liked having such a loathsome scumbag to root against, and it's so satisfying breaking Ghetsis at the end of the sequels that I wish we had another villain like him in the series. Yet at the same time, I liking having morally complex villains a bit more.

Speaking of Ghetsis though, is it just me, or is TV Tropes just dead set on keeping ANY incarnation of Ghetsis from qualifying? I remember they cut an example of him that had an apparently huge rapsheet from some fanfiction (I know a lot of fanfiction tends to be garbage, but I think that if he counts there, he ought to at least be a keeper all the same regardless of the work's quality), and to my knowledge his manga counterpart (who sounds a lot nastier than his game counterpart) didn't make it either.

Even if we don't ever get another one, I'd still be satisfied with just Ghetsis being "that one guy" among the main series villains who's just a total asshole for the sake of it, rather than being a more reasonable villain like Giovanni or having warped ideals of the greater good like Archie, Maxie, Cyrus, or Lysandre. Those latter two are the ones who compete with Ghetsis in heinousness, but both are painted as potentially redeemable tragic villains (Cyrus not so much in DP, but certainly in Platinum.)

I'm actually going to be fair to TV Tropes on this one. The fanfic example had a really bad writeup that didn't really tell us much about Ghetsis that we didn't already know, a few new evil deeds aside. And his manga counterpart can't be considered yet on that site because his arc technically hasn't finished - the B2W2 chapter still hasn't concluded. I let manga!Ghetsis stay as an example on this wiki since as of now he totally fits the bill, but it's reasonable to keep it up in the air on TV Tropes 'cause for all we know he could show some redeeming or negating feature like possibly a VillainousFriendship with Colress (though I personally don't see them as much beyond acquaintances as of now, and if Colress is like his game counterpart, he actually despises the guy too).

Fair enough, as I feel that Complete Monsters really can be uninteresting if written wrong (Example: I found the completely irredeemable Unalaq much less interesting than more morally complex villains like Zaheer and Amon. I'm not sure where Kuvira lies on the morality scale as I'm waaaaaay behind on Book 4, but the Hitler and Stalin comparisons I see fly her way from fans aren't really helping her case... or it could be Godwin's Law at work. :p)

I actually genuinely didn't know that the Unova arc of the manga hadn't concluded, I haven't kept up with it in forever. I thought it would be on X and Y by now, so that's a lot more fair then.

Unalaq was not only the dullest main villain on the show, but the dullest main villain in the Avatar universe, period. The series ended to day, and as I thought, Kuvira's definitely not a CM. She showed remorse and even tears towards the end, and is left alive to pay for her crimes but potentially redeemable since she apologizes to Su for everything. She was a realistic facist dictator character, but not inhumane like Unalaq.

The BW chapter of it concluded, but the B2W2 chapter still hasn't. We're gonna have a long wait for that I'm sure, given this manga's crappy release schedule.

I've been thinking back about the Pokémon Colosseum games, and I actually have a few things to ask you.

1. I'm thinking that Ein should be the only keeper for the first game, at least as far as the main page is concerned. I have no problem with Nascour or Evice staying on the YMMV page, but as far as the main page goes, I'm having a harder time justifying them keeping their spots. I mean, we see for ourselves the effect Ein's work has had on the Shadow Pokémon themselves as well as his research notes and desire to make the process perfect... but what do Ein and Nascour do? A whole load of nothing, at least as far as evil deeds go. Sure, they're complicit in the whole process and are unrepentably evil, but neither of them really does anything truly unforgivable. At the very least I think Evice could stay, but since he was the one truly behind everything (At least before Greevil took charge in XD) and Nascour was pretty much relaying his orders, Nascour should probably be on the game's YMMV page.

2. I honestly think Ardos counts by this wiki's standards if Evice and Nascour are keepers. Sure, his father and brother were redeemable, but that's because Eldes from the start wasn't exactly evil so much as a bit too dedicated to his father and Greevil seemed to realize how wrong he was in the end. I'd say the grounds of Ardos being potentially redeemable are faulty since unlike his family, he's completely unrepentant about the whole Shadow Pokémon process and quite clearly wants to rebuild Cipher (Damn it Nintendo, where's our third Shadow Pokémon game?! I swear, I never imagined the day where freaking Pokémon Trozei would get a sequel but not the Gamecube games...) and was even very okay with the thought of killing everyone on the island as long as Michael died as well. And notably, Snattle, Gorrigan, and even Lovrina of all people make peace with Michael in the post-game, if memory serves Ardos sends you a death threat or at the very least a warning that you're on his shit-list. I hope I don't sound confrontational, I just think that if we're keeping Nascour and Evice, Ardos should count as well.

1. We see the admins, even Ein, taking orders from Nascaur though. And since Nascaur works directly for Evice, than this makes all of them equally heinous. Ein could not have gotten as far as he did with his scientific atrocities had Nascaur not given him the go-ahead for it, and Nascaur wouldn't have done that had Evice not given HIM the go-ahead as well as been the one leading and directing Cipher to begin with. So consider all that and then consider do any of those three characters have any redeeming features? Ein was portrayed as a pure evil sociopath from start to finish, while Nascaur and Evice are literally put in a demonic, monstrous light. I say they all pass the trope.

2. The thing with Ardos is that I could've bought him as meeting the heinous standard had GREEVIL not been redeemed. He was THE founder and leader of Cipher, meaning that he sets the heinous standard of the story (of XD, not Colosseum - those Cipher characters operated separately from the XD ones, thus are judged by their own story and scale). Not only does Ardos not quite measure up aside from one Moral Event Horizon moment towards the end, but there's nothing about him that suggests he's more OR less redeemable than the father who corrupted him in the first place. He doesn't repent by the end of the game, but neither did Cyrus or Lysandre, and they're not CMs. Basically, I do not believe what we have on Ardos is sufficient enough for him to pass a trope that his father and brother could not pass. If we'd gotten a third Orre game where Ardos got more heinous and stayed unrepentant, THEN he'd pass. But as it stands, I really think the Pokemon CM page is fine the way it is.

Hey, I've been giving some thought as to various forms of Spider-Man media, and I've been wondering: are you aware of any potential candidates among Spidey's Rogue's gallery (Which by the way, has a few examples on TV Tropes who I'll give entries on this site to) who could potentially count? I was thinking back to two villains who were proposed but rejected: Kron Stone, the Venom from the Marvel 2099 universe as well as the Marvel Noir universe's Norman Osborn. The two were deemed to have justifiable Freudian Excuses, but I kind of want to contest that.

First, there's Kron. The guy is a mass-murdering lunatic who grew up as a childhood tormentor to that universe's Spider-Man Miguel O'Hara, and only got worse as he grew older. He has a thing for killing all but one member of happy families, and only leaves that one member alive so they can feel the pain from losing their loved ones, and is shown doing this to the 2099's Punisher Jake Gallow's family which kick-starts his vigilante career. What's worse is thanks to the fact that his dad Tyler Stone is a high-level CEO in the ridiculously corrupt 2099 universe, he's allowed to get away with these crimes with no repercussions whatsoever as he can simply pay a fine, and since he was born in a rich family he has cash to blow. Whenever Jake tries murder Kron in retaliation, the heavily injured Kron finds the 2099's universe's Symbiote, and combines with it to become Venom. With his newfound power, he tries to murder his dad but soon shifts his interests over to Spider-Man whenever he interferes. He eventually finds out that Spider-Man is Miguel, and soon murders his girlfriend Dana D'Angelo in order to torment him. As Venom, he also murders scores of innocent people.

Norman Osborn from the Noir universe is a mob boss known as The Goblin, and he's basically responsible for a lot of the corruption running through New York City. He regularly suppresses public protests and assassinates prominent figures who try to fight against corruption, and is even responsible for this universe's Uncle Ben's death whenever he has his cannibalistic troubleshooter Vulture eat him. As for other crimes of his, unfortunately I can't find a whole lot of information on the internet unlike with Kron, and I don't have the money to buy the Noir comics myself. I mean, there's more information on his appearance in the video game Spider-Man: Shattered Dimensions for Pete's sake!

Now, we need to take a look at these guy's Freudian Excuses. Kron had a genuinely shitty childhood as his dad didn't want to spend time with him, and had a robot nanny watch over him. The nanny was a victim of faulty programming, and would treat him like a dog by forcing him to eat dog food, keeping him in a kennel, and so on and so forth. In fact, he even tells the Punisher that his hatred for happy families comes from his home life. However, while his Freudian excuse explains his hatred for happy families, it does not excuse his other atrocities, such as murdering innocent people who don't fit his MO as well as killing Spider-Man's love interest. I believe he's an example like Koba, who while he does have understandable reasons for committing some of his crimes, his other ones are completely and utterly inexcusable showing that he's just a genuinely terrible person all around. Hell, his Freudian Excuse is even deemed as weak in-universe, with the Punisher dismissing him as being another freak with a sob story. And just in case you were wondering if his moral agency is affected by the symbiote, he's less like Eddie Brock or Mac Gargan and more like Cletus Kasady where he's already a psycho, and seems to have control over the symbiote just fine.

As for Norman, he hides a genetic condition that makes his skin green and scaly, hence his Goblin moniker. He was born into a freak show and was mistreated by people because of this condition, which he rants at Spider-Man at around the end of the comic. At the same time however, he was still willing to cozy up to New York's corrupt rich elite and claw his way to the top so he can lord it over innocent people who he can have killed on a whim, so it's up to you if you find his Freudian Excuse valid or not.

I personally think that Kron Stone is an easy keeper, though I do admit that Norman has a stronger case against him, if only thanks to a lack of information available and no way to read the comics on hand. Plus, Norman also has to compete with Noir Doctor Octopus (Who is a disgusting Nazi who performs inhumane experiments on black men) and Noir Crime Master (who assists in Octavius's inhumane experiments and resorts to mass murder).

I'll have to give some thought to Norman, but Kron sounds like a definite example. Give him a writeup and add him to the trope!

Kron has been given a write-up!

So, Spider-Man's section on the Marvel page is pretty big: as the Green Goblin/Norman Osborn, Carnage, The Thousand, Noir Doc Ock, Noir Crime Master, Vulture 2099, and Venom 2099 add up to a total of seven candidates, which could potentially be eight if Noir Norman Osborn is approved. Should Spider-Man get his own page, or at least his own section like the X-Men do?

Nah, not even eight is on the level of the X-Men section. I think we're fine for now. XD

Alright then. But you know, speaking of the Marvel section, I have a few questions.

First off, I was sprucing up some entries that were a tad skimpy, and noticed that Zebediah Kilgrave/Purple Man's barely goes into his bigger crimes and mainly consists of his crimes in the X-Men animated series. I'm going to give him a proper write-up later, but I was wanting to know if his actions also warrant a spot in the Western Animation section: Zebediah is a Villain With Good Publicity who takes in several mutant children, only to brainwash them with his mind control powers into attacking a governor's house so he can be coerced into handing a waterfront project over to Zebediah. When Cyclops finds out about his less-than-legal activities, Zebediah tries to force those children to kill him before burning down the orphanage they came from in order to nail Cyclops as well.

Keep in mind though that he has three bona-fide monsters from the same show to compete with: Apocalypse (Tries to enslave humanity in his first appearance as well as takes advantage of four mutants and forces them to become his Horsemen that he has rampage across the globe, and in his second creates a plague to wipe out most humans and mutants and later tries to destroy the timestream himself), the ever-cuddly Sabretooth/Victor Creed (infilitrates Xavier's school and tricks the X-Men into helping them before attempting to kill them, straps bombs to citizens of an Inuit Village to spite Wolverine, and abandoned his old Spec. Ops team to die at the hands of Omega Red), and his son Graydon (Self-Hating child of two mutants who regularly attacks businesses sympathetic towards mutants and attempts genocide). They make for some steep competition, but you've allowed lower-level villains to qualify in similar shows (Ferris Boyle, Boss Biggis, Sewer King, Warren Lawford, and Arkady Duvall in Batman the Animated Series, Tony Zucco and Black Mask in The Batman) so that's why I'm asking you.

He sounds like the kind of guy who'd usually qualify on principle since his default characterization is that of a child exploiting scumbag.

I got him a write-up. Now another question I had was regarding one of the villains that you left on the list: Mister Hyde. When I spruced up/added entries, I thought about cutting him since the only crime he had listed made him sound more like a glorified bully, but he's actually done some downright disgusting things that make his almost-murder of Jarvis one of his less evil deeds. Atrocities of his include:

• Trying to blow New York City sky-high, which would kill countless innocent people just for the sake of murdering his former partner in crime. Notably, his current employee Batroc the Leaper turned on him out of disgust due to this.

• Kidnapping a homeless man and gruesomely murdering him, going as far as to carve his name on his flesh.

• Spirited away homeless people as well as teenagers and put them through unethical experiments to replicate Spider-Man getting his powers.

However, he was disqualified on TV Tropes because of one Pet the Dog moment: in one story he took in a homeless drug addict, helped her kick the habit, and was upset when another villain killed her. Normally this wouldn't be up for discussion, but I'm only asking because not just here, but even at TV Tropes moments like these have been ignored for some comic book candidates (I'm assuming due to the nature of different writers working on one character over the years runs the risk of out of character moments like this), and Hyde is pretty much always written as a brutish bully at best and a morally depraved monster of a man at the worst with this one moment being the only (to my knowledge) redeeming moment he's ever had. Do you think he should stay, or were they right in cutting him?

Were his motives for the Pet the Dog ever explained?

I can't really find anything explaining his motives for helping that woman, most of what I've read go more into his villainous actions and kind of skip over this one good deed. Even the TV Tropes post that pointed it out merely said that he did this, but didn't provide context or reasons as to why he did it.

Then the info doesn't seem sufficient enough to outweigh his primary characterization. He stays on the trope.

By the way, and I don't mean to be rude here, but I've noticed that in your writeups you've been using "whenever" in places where just the word "when" would suffice and make the sentence clearer. Why is that?

It's not something I intend on doing, it just kind of happens. I'll make more of an effort to be self-aware about this kind of thing in the future though.

OK thanks.

BTW, the Controller WAS in the show - he was the villain of the first season finale, with his character and story lifted directly from the comics, attempts to control Superman and Ferro Lad's sacrifice included.

Well that was silly of me. :p

Yeah, but that's OK. :P