A post on a recent bit of drama involving Complete Monster pages and moderator infighting

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I helped Vorticity/Labster found this site because not everyone wanted to trope on Wikia, and because, honestly, there needs to be an alternative to TV Tropes, especially since allegiance to advertisement sponsors and an increasingly oppressive "Stop Having Fun!" Guys atmosphere seems to have replaced the laid back wiki many members of this site used to enjoy.

I'm the tech guy around here, and I mostly just make sure everything is working properly and manage one of the current approved site bot accounts for maintenance edits and other needed projects.

I'm not a fan of admin fiat decision making and prefer to solicit suggestions from the community before making any major decisions, so drop by the The Forums or my talk page if you have a question.

I also do some game reviews for ChristCenteredGamer as of 5/22/2019.

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7

I write this post reluctantly, but since this has caused an, if you'll forgive my language, utter shitstorm that has drowned everyone in feces, I'm gonna talk about the situation in general and give a solution as a party who would like it be resolved to the satisfaction of all parties.


First, DocColress objected to a tiny Complete Monster page with just one example on it for one game in the Tales series. Fair enough, but deciding to delete the page repeatedly despite disagreement on the good sense behind it was unacceptable. We DON'T make such decisions by fiat here until they are hashed out.

The argument at the crux of this is simple: Those who prefer to lump information all on one page and those who prefer to split it to more relevant pages dedicated to the topic.

Given the subject at hand, I prefer splitting to prevent information being cloned on multiple pages, and that seems to be the majority decision. However, DocColress seems to still object to having the same information on a hub page and on it's own page as nonsense, and concur, given the prior discussion on what the majority voted on, hence this edit to resolve the debate:

https://allthetropes.org/w/index.php?title=Complete_Monster%2FTales_%28series%29&type=revision&diff=1719933&oldid=1719471

That said, the CM pages tend to be battlegrounds, and given splitting the pages for certain media into separate pages keeps it more orderly and makes the battlegrounds easier to manage, I would like to implement a policy GLOBALLY across ATT all CM examples on hub pages be moved to their own pages. On YMMV pages for works, it would be preferable to link to the CM subpage if such is possible to do.

Finally, I just want to register my immense disappointment this required my intervention. This is generally one of the more civil wikis on the internet, and I would prefer it remains that way. I remain appalled at anyone who chose to act uncivil over this dispute, and I want it on record those who did have my official reprimand for acting so immaturely.

If anyone has any objections to my proposed solution or has arguments in its favor, please respond to this blog post, especially and including the following:


@Labster @Looney Toons @QuestionableSanity @DocColress @LulzKiller @SelfCloak


UPDATE: Just want to mention that part of the uncivil actions seem to be because DocColress, who has been managing the CM pages while most of us did not, apparently feels the change that triggered this dispute was a bad way to handle things. While I disapprove of any nasty commentary or actions on their part to register such disapproval, I must concede they had basically been given free reign to manage those pages and did so usually without issue from other admins until this upset the applecart. While Doc has done a wonderful job and I appreciate their service as part of the admin team keeping one of the more unruly sections of the site under wraps, the other admins, I must concede, need to remember DocColress was the one shouldering any burdens in that area most of the time, and I would like to remind them (and Doc) to not get upset over a "turf" dispute, we should all do what benefits this place as a collective whole.

By the same token, while I agree this is a bit of chaos that needs some order, the fact chaos was started over HOW to implement said order is also counterproductive, and both sides frankly should have chilled out a little if you ask me.



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Derivative

7 months ago
Score 3

I've got a very similar idea to Geth as to what we can do to remove all redundancy, and I also heavily agree with him on what I found to be a rather uncivility in this matter.

What if we move all CM examples into a dedicated subpage of the work.

Example: Name of work/Complete Monster

This means we can regard it like laconic or YMMV; as it's own new subpage category, instead of this pseudo-category/site-section. This also allows to vastly reduce the amount of confusion regarding what gets put into a separate CM section i.e CM/tales series; which in categorisation terms can become very confusing.
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GethN7

7 months ago
Score 0
I definitely like this idea.
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Robkelk

7 months ago
Score 0

That does make sense, and it could probably be done by a bot (Move Complete Monster/* to */Complete Monster) - although, with the pages semi-protected, it would have to be done by a bot with sufficient permissions.

But this only treats the symptom that caused this to come out into the open, while ignoring the underlying problem of a single admin having a veto over what can be posted to particular pages.
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Looney Toons

7 months ago
Score 2
A CM subpage for works makes perfect sense to me. But we also need to deal with DocC's attitude problem. The most recent thing from him I've seen is a flat-out declaration that ATT is a joke because doesn't follow his standards and permits uncontrolled chaos by allowing users to post whatever they want. Since one of the purposes of ATT was to allow users to post whatever they wanted without fear of administrative censorship, this strikes me as an attitude contrary to the very nature of ATT, and possibly a violation of our Policy for Wiki Staff.
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GethN7

7 months ago
Score 1
We might be better served to hammer out explicit rules for what is and isn't allowed for CM pages, even if it requires going into super-autistic levels of detail, if only to give ANYONE who moderates those pages boundaries with no wiggle room for anyone, admin or troper, to argue otherwise.
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Derivative

7 months ago
Score 0
One should also note this was the exact same situation that happened with the YMMV trope so many years ago on TVT, which caused them to create the YMMV subpage, which solved the entire problem.
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DocColress

7 months ago
Score 0
This should be less of an issue because a subpage for the CM example that this concerns already exists and existed well before this debacle - the Tales series subpage.
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Robkelk

7 months ago
Score 0

Yes, the rest of the wiki staff should have been paying closer attention to what was going on with this trope. We took at face value the statements from the staff member in question that the measures being employed were for controlling vandalism and spam, and it wasn't until this happened that we discovered the staff member's definition of "spam" includes "pages with just one on-topic example".

I apologize for my lack of oversight in this matter.
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GethN7

7 months ago
Score 1

Me, I looked over most of the edits, and when it was to prevent flamewarring, fine, that's constructive.

Splitting pages in subpages to prevent cloning information, that's not vandalism, that's just being neat.
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DocColress

7 months ago
Score 0

"the staff member's definition of "spam" includes "pages with just one on-topic example"."

I never said it was spam. If "spam" was given as a reason for my initial deletion of the page, it was because I wasn't sure what other reasoning to select.

And you still don't get it - the problem isn't that it's a page with "just one on-topic example." It's that it's a page with an example that already appears on a page for entries of that entire series. Having the single CM of Tales of Berseria warrant his own page makes it almost look like we're playing favorites with a single game in the series. When a subpage made for the purpose of citing examples from different entries in a series exists, there's no reason for one such entry in the series to be made a special snowflake among others.
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DocColress

7 months ago
Score 0

Alright, let me explain my position like I did to GethN7.

First off, Robkelk misunderstands that I was not and am not intending to have any veto over "what can be posted to particular pages." I wanted to veto the idea for that particular page even getting created, because it contains absolutely nothing on it that cannot already be found on the subpage for CM examples in the Tales series that we already had prior to that new page's creation. This one: https://allt...les_(series)


The core issue here is that when you look at this page: https://allt...lete_Monster there is visibly now a subpage for the Tales series that lists examples from different entries in the series, Tales of Berseria included, AND a subpage just for Tales of Berseria that has that single entry. No image, no header, no other examples - just that one writeup that's already covered on the Tales series subpage AND (last I checked) the YMMV page for Tales of Berseria. My objection here is the sheer REDUNDANCY of the new page's existence and how silly it stands out as looking when compared to literally every other page in that category. That's why I absolutely would've vetoed the page before it came into existence and I still veto it now.

Everyone seems ridiculously protective of the page, but I have yet to hear a single argument in favor of why it needs to stay. Any argument on what it offers to this Wiki that only it can offer. Because from what I can tell, there is nothing.

I have loved the Complete Monster trope on this Wiki the way it was and would gladly welcome any new content to it that actually contributes new information that's beneficial to the trope and the Wiki. But I really don't want to have to see a subpage for a single installment to a larger series when the subpage for that larger series and all installments to it is also still here and was perfectly fine as a place to put down examples from any Tales of games, just as all other subpages for series' are perfectly fine as the places to put down examples from any entries in those series'.

I am not trying to be tyrannical or enforce my will on every other user here or have an "attitude problem". I'm just stressed out because I feel like I'm in upside down land right now where everyone sees no problem with the existence of a Complete Monster subpage for a single game in a series that already had an existing page for examples from the games in that series, containing nothing but a single writeup for a single character that is word-for-word the same writeup as what's displayed on the pre-existing page for Tales series Monsters. No one but me sees what's so odd and ultimately fruitless about that decision.
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Robkelk

7 months ago
Score 1

The problem is not with that single page, and I really wish you'd stop harping on it.

The problem is the veto.

As long as a single admin continues to think that he or she is allowed to have a veto somewhere on All The Tropes, we have a problem.

Quoting from All The Tropes:Policy for Wiki Staff, which is part of the legal agreement between All The Tropes and its users:

2. Disagreement with the Wiki staff is not treason. You will never be banned for disagreeing with wiki policy. You will never have your posts or comments or contributions erased simply because a staff member didn't like what you said. We want to see other opinions and points of view from ours, because we know from experience that we can (and probably will) be wrong on occasion. If you can convince us, great! If you can't, we bet we can still find something of value in what you wrote.

How many people have you banned because they disagreed with you on which characters are or are not Complete Monsters? How many contributions have you deleted unilaterally? How many opinions and points of view other than your own have you ignored? How often have you refused to find something of value in what somebody else wrote?

This is why I'm so upset. Your actions might be putting the entire wiki at risk.
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RabidTanker

7 months ago
Score 0
Rob? Although it's been several years ago, I saw Colress block someone on the Wikia version for arguing with him about what counts as an CM.
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DocColress

7 months ago
Score 0

"Splitting pages in subpages to prevent cloning information, that's not vandalism, that's just being neat."

Never said it was vandalism - it's just not needed because the subpage containing that information already existed under the name Monster/Tales (series).
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GethN7

7 months ago
Score 0

Stupid to you, maybe.

Everyone else voted for it, you were overruled, I suggest you live with the result. If it proves more trouble than it's worth, we can always revert things later.

Me, I just want to eliminate as many different places as possible people can have edit wars over these pages and more easily isolate flashpoints of contention.
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DocColress

7 months ago
Score 0

@Robkelk: You're the one who first used the term veto. When you decided it was OK to make that stupid page, you'd stated "no veto from DocColress." That gave me the impression that a verdict from me, whether that be a veto or not, was expected but I came upon the matter too late.

The only person I recall ever banning was an actual vandal, serial ban evader, and problem starter. Otherwise, I've never resorted to banning even the people who submitted entries or made edits I didn't agree with. And I've tried to make room for all words, viewpoints, opinions and subjective information because there's nothing inherently inappropriate about any of it. That's not my way at all and I am disheartened that you think of me so lowly that you suspect it might be.
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GethN7

7 months ago
Score 0

Okay, fine, Rob could have used a better word like "dissent".

That said, we vote by consensus here. Even if your vote was late, it still would not have overcome the majority rule. You are still free to make your objection noted for future reference in the event minds change on the topic being discussed so they can be referred to, but in this case, you, no offense, were not going to win this.

My suggestion is let this change go without further dispute and see what happens.This winds up being a bad change, we can revert it. Until then, it's is decided, let us try it.
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DocColress

7 months ago
Score 0
@GethN7: The majority that outvoted me still has yet to explain why they seemingly all forgot that the Tales series subpage existed or make a case for why a Tales of Berseria subpage with only one example on it is something we need when we already have that Tales of Berseria example among other examples from other Tales games on a pre-existing page. That's what really baffles me here.
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GethN7

7 months ago
Score 1

Fair point. Let's put them all on subpages devoted to their work then and turn the communal page for the series into links to the sub-pages.

If we are going to subpage them, let's go whole hog on that.
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DocColress

7 months ago
Score 0

@GethN7 - I'd rather we not. I don't see why we need to subpage them, and it would start a bad trend for other existing subpages of this trope. Imagine it for a moment: you'd go to Complete Monster/Video Games and click the link to Complete Monster/Tales (series)...only to on that page find more links to individual game subpages, and when you click those, all you get is a small page with one or two entries.

When having a page for all the different examples from all the different games in the series is a neater option for allowing tropers to view writeups for characters who are approved examples of the Complete Monster trope, why go and over-complicate things with an excess of subpages?
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GethN7

7 months ago
Score 0

I get it, you're concerned it will lead to a bunch of stub pages that just bloat up page links for really small things.

However, counterpoint: Laconic pages do just that in terms of size and no one complains about them.

Further, CM pages tend to inspire edit wars and gladiator combat level fights over who or what does not fit, even for just one example at times. I want to be able to more easily pin down what caused the dispute, what page it happened on, and I want to be able to deal with the problem faster, and I want it all to be limited to just one page to ease administrative hassles. Besides, in defense of how you don't like cloned information, this localizes arguments for examples to one page only and make it easier to protect, revert, delete, or modify pages causing issues for everyone. This includes making it easier on you to keep track of, and it prevents having to lock entire pages with examples from different works when it just one that is causing the flashpoint of contention.
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Robkelk

7 months ago
Score 0

I just noticed this while compiling the various proposals on what to do here: "approved examples".

Discussion of an individual page is pretty much irrelevant compared to that attitude.

I'll quote Looney Toons: "Since one of the purposes of ATT was to allow users to post whatever they wanted without fear of administrative censorship, this strikes me as an attitude contrary to the very nature of ATT, and possibly a violation of our Policy for Wiki Staff."
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DocColress

7 months ago
Score 0

Counterpoint: Laconic pages are made for that size. Pages for a trope like Complete Monster are expected to have more content.

There haven't really been much edit wars on that trope for a good long while, though. And while I do see your point, I'd prefer it if things didn't come to that, as I feel the trope was just fine as it was prior to this drama. If I spot any edit warring happening or disputes of any kind, I could always just notify you and others rather than take immediate action.
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GethN7

7 months ago
Score 0

I get what you would prefer. And yes, CM pages usually tend to have more content.

That said, the decision has been voted on, I suggest you swallow your disgust and deal. This can always be reverted later if it turns out horribly.

In the meantime, I just want assurances you will accept the decision of the majority no matter how stupid you may find it. If this blows up in our faces, so be it, you warned us, we will eat crow then. If not, again, it turned out better than you hoped, that should suffice.
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DocColress

7 months ago
Score 0

How about this?

I will accept the decision BUT still advise that we not get into making new subpages for individual works just yet, and if anyone is ever considering doing so, that they check in with me and you about it first and not take action until there's consensus from both of us, just to ensure something like this doesn't repeat itself.

Then when it's been a month from now when can revisit the matter of the Tales of Berseria CM subpage's existence and see how we're all feeling about it. Maybe there will be less of an instinctive need to fight for it's existence once I'm no longer viewed as being The Enemy.
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GethN7

7 months ago
Score 0

Your objection is noted, but overruled.

That said, I'm going with the community consensus on this. As for yourself, I will give you two choices, your response wil determine my action.

1. Accept this situation, warts and all. I will do nothing.

2. Continue to oppose a made up community on this. I will be forced to remove your mod hat for a period yet to be determined until you can cool your head.

You are not the enemy here, it's clear a few heads need cooling besides yours here, and I want everyone here to calm down, but at the same time, I just want this to end in a definitive manner, one most (if not all) can agree to.

I suggest you take a few days off away from the community to calm down, your position here will be present when you return, you have my word. Until then, please calm down, everyone's passions need to simmer down some.
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DocColress

7 months ago
Score 0

I will accept the situation regarding this page.

If I get notified that something like this is being proposed again, though, I will dispute it. I might get overruled there too, but at least I'd have made a better effort than I did here.

And I still hope we can all re-examine the matter of the page's existence in a month or two's time once all heads have cooled down.
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DocColress

7 months ago
Score 0

@GethN7: Did you read my private message yet? This really does mean so much to me...

I'm in tears right now. My contributions here never meant anything, did they?/Everyone here hates me and what I believe could.work out the best for the trope and it's pages.

I just wanted a good alternative to.TV Tropes when it comes to tropes like this, one that operates under fair guidelines and avoided getting clogged up by unneeded wank. But now I'm afraid there is none...
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Robkelk

7 months ago
Score 0
It appears DocColress has chosen Option 2 - and has also chosen to keep that choice away from this page even after being reminded that this is where GethN7 requested that the discussion take place.
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DocColress

7 months ago
Score 0
Not quite - I'm not directly opposing the page being here anymore, I just want to hear a good argument for why the page was even voted upon in the first place (since I missed out on that vote) and what value it might have in it's existence. I'm not pushing for it's immediate removal and I'm not going to even try and delete it, but I wish to see a good point made, even if I don't concede to it.
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Robkelk

7 months ago
Score 0

Okay, it's been a week. Let's recap the proposed fixes to this mess.

First, what to do when moderators disagree.

GethN7's proposal: Hammer out explicit rules for what is and isn't allowed for CM pages, even if it requires going into super-autistic levels of detail.

if only to give ANYONE who moderates those pages boundaries with no wiggle room for anyone, admin or troper, to argue otherwise.


Second, what to do with the pages.

LulzKiller's proposal: Move all CM examples into a dedicated subpage of the work: "Name of work/Complete Monster" instead of "Complete Monster/Name of work"

This means we can regard it like laconic or YMMV; as it's own new subpage category, instead of this pseudo-category/site-section. This also allows to vastly reduce the amount of confusion regarding what gets put into a separate CM section i.e CM/tales series; which in categorisation terms can become very confusing.
One should also note this was the exact same situation that happened with the YMMV trope so many years ago on TVT, which caused them to create the YMMV subpage, which solved the entire problem.

GethN7's proposal: Let's put them all on subpages devoted to their work then and turn the communal page for the series into links to the sub-pages.

If we are going to subpage them, let's go whole hog on that.
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DocColress

7 months ago
Score -1
I'm definitely all for GethN7's first proposal, but definitely not for LulzKiller's proposal or GethN7's that goes along with it.
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Robkelk

7 months ago
Score 0

I see from the change log that the very first thing that DocColress chose to do after his one-week account block expired was to act against the will of the majority as stated here, and remove the link that GethN7 had put onto the Complete Monster/Tales (series) page.

DocColress is not acting in good faith in this matter.

I move to revoke DocColress's administrator rights.
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DocColress

7 months ago
Score 0

I apologize for that edit.

The reason I'd thought to do it was because my one-week account block occurred just as I was setting to negotiate the edits GethN7 made to that page. I felt that the existence of the Tales of Berseria page didn't mean that the Tales of Berseria entry on the series subpage had to be taken away from the other entries on there.

Before my administrator rights are revoked, I'd like to speak with GethN7 on this matter. Afterwards, I might just leave this Wiki behind. No one seems to want me around anyway, so maybe NoxiousSludge had the right idea about this place...
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Robkelk

7 months ago
Score 0

Here's the same offer I make to every other person who insists they know better than the consensus here: We'll help you make a copy of All The Tropes and you can go set up a fork of the wiki somewhere else where you can run things the way you want to.

How does that sound?
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GethN7

7 months ago
Score 0
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DocColress

7 months ago
Score 0
I have no idea how to do that, though. Geth's explanation for it went over my dumb autistic head. And due to all the bridges I've burned here, I'm not sure if anyone will help me, though if you could, I would be so appreciative.
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DocColress

7 months ago
Score 0

I don't know if any of you could ever forgive someone like me, but I'm sorry. I'm sorry for everything. This whole matter was entirely my fault; I wasn't there for when the page's creation was being voted on, so all my actions afterwards were just me trying to ease my own guilt. I wouldn't have turned the whole Wiki community against me, gotten blocked for a week, lost my admin rights, and be left with no choice but to leave behind this site I'd loved so much had I Just sucked it up and dealt with the end result of the vote I'd missed out on, even if it's an end result that pains me to look at. I'm sincerely sorry for all the hurtful words I might've said and all the needless drama I caused.

Again, I don't know if you could forgive me, nor do I expect forgiveness. But I do regret my actions and wish things had gone differently between us...

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