User talk:Saline

We all agreed that if we want to change media categories, we need to go to the Wiki Talk forum. Also, Hitler.

...as you did for "Video Games" on Industrialized Evil. They are (or at least are supposed to be) standardized across the wiki.

But... Floor 13 can be played on the computer.

Video Game and Computer Games are not mutually exclusive.

Right so I think we needed to explain a little better. Works on here are classified by genre as much as they are they are by medium. Why? Because we've gotten to a place where:

• SNES cartridge games can be played on a phone
• Emmy-winning television can be internet-original and played on a phone
• Radio can be played on a phone
• Electronic books can be read on a phone.
• Smartphones, rarely, are used to make voice calls.

Right, so if we mention the medium every time, we're just going to have to add "can also be experienced on a smartphone" to every entry. This isn't informative or helpful.

So you look at it this way: is it a game with interactive visual elements? If so, it's a video game. Is it a serial audiovisual format with no interactivity?: television. You can discuss the formats the work was distributed in on the work's page.

Why is the genre still called "video game"?

Because it has video, unlike tabletop games.

Why is the genre still called Film or Cinema when it's distributed on shiny disks? No tape needed.

Right, well other, more modern terms that are more literally true also exist, like "movie" and "electronic game".

Regardless, you don't get to unilaterally decide to change the media categories. If you feel strongly enough about this, you are free to make a proposal to the wiki user base in the forums, and campaign among the users to convince them. If you can generate a consensus that the media types need to be changed, we will allow you to change them. But changing them on one page and basically defending it by saying "they're stupid" isn't going to cut it.

Also, understand that if you succeed, you're volunteering to make all the necessary edits -- or lead a team to make those edits -- on all 30,000 or so trope pages. Which not only means renaming the sections, but reordering the sections to put them in proper alphabetical order by their new names. If you insist on the change but back off on the work when you get it, it's not going win you any friends.

Also, fair warning: If you do try to get a consensus and fail, don't try to go ahead and force it on the wiki anyway. We've already had to perm-ban one rather persistent fellow who had a deep and strongly-held conviction that we were being sexist towards goddesses by using the word "god" as a gender-neutral term in trope names and article texts. Which led to him trying several times to ram page renames down the wiki's throat, even after he failed to get anyone to agree with his viewpoint.

It's nothing personal, we're just debating the names of genres.

You do understand that every other person in this conversation with you is a wiki administrator, myself included? We're not debating anything -- we're telling you the proper way to go about this. The only way you'll get to change the media types is if you get a majority of the wiki user base to agree with you that it needs doing. Otherwise we'll be ignoring your arguments and reverting any changes you make.

You're trying to shut down debate by pulling rank.

We are trying to tell you how to start the debate.

This isn't even natter, it's on my talk page.

Listen, I'm not trying to provoke anyone. I just wanted to talk about what to call a genre. Now everyone please just calm down.

Why would we care if it was natter? There are no policies against natter on this wiki.

As far as I can tell, everyone is calm, o salty one. We're just telling you that what you are proposing/doing is outside of the ordinary, and if we decide to go that way, we'll need more community consensus.

Also "movie" isn't a more modern term, it's a shortening of "moving picture", only about 20 years newer than cinéma. Since video games have moving pictures, wouldn't they count as movies too (and also talkies)?

Let's see if I can parse this correctly without anyone taking offense:

"As far as I can tell, everyone is calm" - I'll take this as a performative speech act, not a declarative one. Thank you for de-escalating this.

"o salty one" - Here is what Wiktionary has to say about the word "salty":

Adjective

1. Tasting of salt.
2. Containing salt.
3. Coarse, provocative, earthy; said of language.
4. Experienced, especially used to indicate a veteran of the naval services; salty dog (from salt of the sea).
   • 2004, David Mitchell, Cloud Atlas

     There's a sailor's tavern at the end of the street where I could find companionship if I chose (one catches salty boys going in and out at any hour) but only music matters to me now.

5. Irritated, annoyed; from sharp, spicy flavor of salt.
   • 1946, Mezz Mezzrow and Bernard Wolfe, Really the Blues, Payback Press 1999, page 61:

     Ray and Fuzzy were salty with our unhip no-playing piano player, because she broke time on the piano so bad that the strings yelled whoa to the hammers.

   • 1969, Iceberg Slim, Pimp: The Story of My Life, Holloway House Publishing, page 162:

     I want to beg your pardon for making you salty that night.

6. Pertaining to those dialects of Catalan, spoken in the Balearic Islands and along the coast of Catalonia, that use definitive articles descended from the Latin instead of the Latin .

I'll take "experience", though I'm not claiming to be a former, current nor future service-member. I might have to wait before responding to the content of this.

Here's what the OED says for saline: "containing or impregnated with salt".

Your self-chosen username means "salty", and I suspect (not being a mind-reader) that Labster meant his term that way.

Labster meant 5.

I was more scared of a discussion on the name of a genre turning into the "epic fall" part of a Rise and Fall Narrative than annoyed. Labster, should I ask you if meant 5? Do we need a page on the Rise and Fall Narrative trope?

I was thinking 2 but... I'm just going to claim Death of the Author here and let everyone interpret what I meant.

English. What a language. This doesn't happen in Esperanto. Ĉu iu ajn kiu ne estas mi ĉi-tie komprenas Esperanton?

Please note that rather than trying to "shut down discussion", I explicitly instructed you to post in the forums and engage the entire user base in the discussion. However, if you'd prefer to feel like a victim because we didn't just roll over and agree with you, you're welcome to.

Dear lord, Looney Toons, I am not some fascist trying to conquer Allthetropes just because I wanted to debate the name of some genre. There's a difference between debate and conquest. I wanted to talk, not conquer. I thought that was clear already. Why are you accusing me of having a victim complex?

You were accusing me of being a fascist out to conquer, right?

Dude.

A proper debate does not include name-calling. Bob knows that.

I think you owe him an apology.

Also, wiki policy clearly states: "Verbal attacks on other tropers because their tastes are different from yours are juvenile and will gain you a temporary ban at the least." Since it's in the policy, I am forced to tempban you - for two hours, the minimum ban.

I'd just like to point out three things:

1. (because pedantry seems to be the thing in this thread) It's "All The Tropes", not "allthetropes". Three words.
2. There's a reason that no one writes poetry in Esperanto -- not enough shades of meaning. That reason is closely related to why few speak Esperanto.
3. That I'm just going to mention Hitler now, because of Godwin's Law and we were already getting close.

Can I just "resolve" this topic so it doesn't waste any more of our energy?

Hey, great to see you making edits. However, Examples Need Context -- you can't just throw out names, and especially not on evil tropes. You won't convince anyone. Can you go back and add context to your example?

Also, Microsoft? What is this, 1995?

Also, I hope you also name your children Saline, so that your great grandchild will be named Saline IV.

Add context to example in page on Industrialized Evil, wilco.

Check it. There's context, but there might be other problems with it.

There are. The bulk of your material on McDonald's reads as a rant, throwing out accusations as if they were commonly-acknowledged fact. If you're going to put that kind of claim in an example, you had best include links to verifiable supporting evidence. Oh, and the sentence about robbers is pretty much irrelevant -- it doesn't matter if it's a corporation, it's blaming the victim for a crime committed against them. I have removed those sentences for now as being opinion presented as objective fact. Provide supporting links, and they can go back in.

Don't bother. I'm not that interested in disputes.