Talk:Adolf Hitler

Richard Tedor: Hitler's Revolution • Russel H. Stolfi: Hitler- Beyond Evil and Tyranny • Veronica K. Clark: the Black Nazis! Trilogy • Veronica K. Clark (Translator): Hitler and Himmler Uncensored

Okay, checked those out, and here is my evaluation:

Black Nazis definitely shows even blacks fought unironically for the Nazi state. The book is considered by critics to be rather apologist for the Nazi regime, but that comers with caveat you will likely feel that way if you considered the Nazis anything less evil incarnate.

Hitler's Revolution does challenge a lot of the more one-sided "Hitler was always the bad guy" myths, with the work being a critical piece on the more "the Nazis did nothing good ever and Hitler was a bad man, period" works that the author considered especially biased against fact.

Hitler and Himmler Uncensored was a bit hard to track down, it was banned from sale on Amazon (which I did not factor into consideration, they've banned other books for even more questionable reasons before), but the information I did find indicates Hitler and Himmler apparently were not total genocidal madmen who advocated mass slaughter of everyone not German. Opinions range from "too small a sample size of their dialogue to make a firm conclusion" to "Nazi whitewash".

Hitler Beyond Evil and Tyranny seeks to show Hitler was the CONSTANT aggressor 150% of the time and seeks to show not every single movement of the Nazis was unprovoked. Opinions tend to mostly be "not how historians like to show things most of the time, but quite well researched and fairly balanced".

But, in your expert opinion, do you think these are legitimate works? I plan on using them to edit the page. None of the authors have any affiliation with neo-Nazism, white supremacy, white nationalism, racism, or anything of that sort.

I have yet to read any of them in detail, but insofar as they count as sources, I will reserve judgment until I need to verify their facts independently. For now, consider this a provisional green light, as I was able to verify your contention the authors are not Nazi-sympathetic or anything in that regard based on my own cursory examination.

Upon further review, with the exception of Hitler and Himmler Uncensored, which I was unable to acquire a copy of yet, all but Hitler's Revolution are cleared for use as sources.

Hitler's Revolution, having read it, is more than just "history is a story with two sides". It reads like an attempt to rehabilitate Hitler and Nazism that goes out of it's way to skirt around anything negative while overemphasizing the positive. Further, while it could be used as a source of quotes at least, it's view is in such obvious sympathy to Hitler's positions as to be downright wrong.

The economic information, for instance, is so grossly wrong and paints such a false picture compared to what I know (and I've read actual source documents from the period in question) that my BS meter hit the ceiling. The take on Nazism's racial positions skirts around or avoids mentioning provable things they did, such as Aktion T4 and Kristallnacht which hammers a massive nail through the book's claims on Hitler's lack of bigotry against those he considered eugenic dead ends and it also omits any reference to the Jewish persecution (which makes the book claim his Jew hatred was an abstract political stance utterly inconsistent given the known Nuremburg Laws) which has so many contemporary public source documents attesting to it's existence that only a Nazi apologist could possibly avoid bringing up the subject.

The political information is checkered at best, and while mostly accurate on casual inspection, is carefully slanted to make Hitler look far better than he actually did, and I've ready enough Hitler biographies to be able to say Hitler's Revolution definitely paints a far rosier picture than actual reality. I also noticed a lack of sourcing for many controversial things, except to sources carefully pruned or cherrypicked to make Hitler look good.

Note: I looked up some of the original cited sources, and they came from openly pro-Nazi parties contemporary to the time discussed in the text, so the author of Hitler's Revolution either did a very poor job vetting things for accuracy or is a closest Nazi fanboy.

In short, that book is Nazi whitewash drenched, direct quotes only can be quoted, and even then it must be backed up with a verifiable citation.

The Black Nazis stuff is much better, merely presenting objective fact about non ethnic Germans who chose to support and fight for the Germans for the most part. The Beyond Evil and Tyranny is a commentary mostly on other historians work and is generally arguing the underdog position in many cases to encourage critical thinking of what they attest was more complex than the historians they critique. Not citable in and of itself, but can be used to draw comparisons over differing conclusions.

In short, with the exception of one source, one is a trash fire of heavily unreliable information and one is not very useful on it's own. That in mind, unless you can bring better stuff to the table aside from the Black Nazis books, you need better sources worth something on their own merits with much better primary citation.

I'm going to have to overrule Geth here. He may be carefully evaluating what you're presenting, but honestly, your sudden intent to absolutely remove a trope rather than add moderating language to it -- and to throw a half-dozen books at it as a justification -- that struck me as very odd. Odd enough to merit a little investigation.

We've found your history of attempts at Nazi apologism on TV Tropes. We don't want that here. So good-bye. You're getting a permban.

-- Looney Toons, admin

CC: @Labster, @Robkelk, @QuestionableSanity, @Derivative, @SelfCloak, {{FlowMention|GethN7}

Expected things to end this way eventually, but discovering the TVT history seems to have fast tracked all of that.

My concern now is that they're in Tropedia's fan Discord, and I'm tempted to warn the ops at Tropedia about said history.

Please do.

Seems like I missed on some entertainment by my absence, I'm surprised he didn't start using more famously known wignat sources.

Geth was probably more patient than I or Bob would be.

I am writing this post to voice my intent to completely rewrite this page in light of new research material in my possession which paints a vastly different picture of Hitler than the one painted here. I have discussed this with GethN7 and he assured me I could make historical edits so long as I provided sources. Nonetheless I thought it prudent to state my goal before I started editing, as my research isn't yet complete.

You have a personal sandbox page link, please put your revised draft there, and make all changes you intend for the actual page there. You may copy the original page to the sandbox page and work on that if you would like. Once it has reached a sufficient degree of polish, flag me down to look at it and I will evaluate it before any changes are approved or content moved. Once any needed edits and corrections are all done, I will be happy to move any approved changes where appropriate.

I have read many books of World War II and read many official documents from that period, so I have a more than passing familiarity with this topic historically, so please go through me for approval of anything beforehand, I will deal with it ASAP.

I'm sorry, where is my sandbox page link again?

It's at User:Christianbethel/sandbox.

If you're using the standard skin for the wiki, you can also find it in the line that starts with your user name at the very top right of every page, after "Talk".

I will. Thanks again!

I just went to GethN7's page to add him as a friend and have discovered he has stepped down from his position as an admin and has left the site. He was the one I was supposed to talk to about making changes to the Adolf Hitler related pages. Who do I submit my changes to now that he's gone?

Geth needs to update his page - he's on sabbatical, not gone altogether. He should be back soon...

How soon? Do you have an estimate?

Can't begin to guess. Right now, there are some technical issues with the wiki that he's working on.

FYI, I'm back to my position here, and will be for the foreseeable future.