Topic on Talk:Cool Motive, Still A Crime

Two and a half years ago, we had this same trope proposed and after much discussion it was rejected as being an attempt to do an end-run around our then-new lock-down of Complete Monster. I don't want to have us go through that whole mishegas again.

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Maybe it would work better as a YMMV Trope?

Don't we already have a "hero tells the villain that his excuse is invalid" trope? Unless there's some subtle difference between this and Shut UP, Hannibal that I'm not getting.

One of the deletion reasons was "not a trope". I've been trying to find the discussion we had -- it's probably a lost/disconnected Flow thread with a random alphanumeric name -- but I recall that on that front that there was a strong argument that there was no benefit for having this trope that "Freudian Excuse: Averted" couldn't provide on a work page.

My apologies; I didn't realize that it was a discussion from two and a half years ago. Mainly I was adding it because I thought there was a dearth to fill.

With that said, it does feel like it's a trope in say BoJack Horseman, where characters are constantly told that their tragic backstories. My criteria is if another character calls out the person in canon, hero or villain. Fans calling them out should not ever count. If there is a canonical source of the callout, does that skirt the Complete Monster issue?

No need to apologize, there's no way you could have known this had been pitched and rejected once already.

Usually a Complete Monster has no excuse whatsoever. A Freudian Excuse makes a villain at least slightly tragic, and thus disqualifies him from a Complete Monster label.

Of course, with many Freudian Excuse cases, the background can be subjected to the villain's biased view of the facts. For example, Fantastic Four villain the Mole Man claims he had a Friendless Background where he was antagonized for his ugliness, but then, The Official Handbook of the Marvel Universe points out that every story about his past has been related by the Mole Man himself, and thus could well be tainted by his own biased interpretation. Unlike, say, Dr. Doom, a villain whose tragic past can be confirmed by more trustworthy witnesses.

Would changing the name perhaps help, to reiterate that these examples only happen in-universe? For example, something like "I Am In Pain And Responsible For My Actions"? Or "Cool Motive, Still Murder" from Brooklyn 99?

The way I understand this is that it's specifically about one character rejecting another's Freudian Excuse, and is a subtrope of Shut UP, Hannibal in that the latter can apply in general to things like Not So Different, "The Reason You Suck" Speech, etc. Nothing in it says that the character is completely without redeeming traits and beyond redemption the way a Complete Monster is.

Yeah, not really agreeing with the whole "trying to skirt around Complete Monster" thing. "Doing reprehensible things because you have a sad backstory and getting called out on your shit" and "pure evil with no redeeming qualities" aren't in any way mutually exclusive. This trope covers just about any character that's even remotely antagonistic, whether they're a genocidal dictator, ruthless serial killer, underhanded businessman, school bully, or even a sympathetic good guy who acts out in a really shitty way.

Like, a really good example of this trope in action is Drax the Destroyer in Guardians of the Galaxy, a heroic character who nearly gets his friends killed when he foolishly picks a fight with the villain who murdered his wife and daughter. When he explains himself to Rocket Raccoon, one of said friends who nearly got killed, he isn't impressed and tells him off by saying "EVERYONE'S got dead people! It’s no excuse to get everybody else dead along the way!"

As for the name, I dunno if we can keep it since it's word for word a trope name back at TV Tropes, but I like it and can't really think of a better one.

Cool Motive, Still Murder might be a good one. It's from Brooklyn Nine Nine: https://www.youtube.com/shorts/oyg7T9emCUA

Legally, we can use the same trope names, but honestly, we try not to copy anything TVT's done since the fork.

I like Jlaw's name suggestion.

That's fine, but I want to see a good reason why we should reconsider a trope we've rejected once already.

I'd like to think that this time, Allthetropes has a fairly reasonable policy of screening posts from new people, speaking as a new person, and when we have disagreements we can talk about them here without anyone getting banned or feelings getting hurt.

From what you said, the original reason why the trope was rejected was because people used it as a loophole for complete monster. If we set clear criteria, then we can monitor the parameters as well as the entries. That way no one can try to squeeze in their loopholes.

My criteria would go thusly:

1) This trope can happen to a hero, villain, protagonist, antagonist or side character. They don't have to be evil, just a jerk that tries to justify their behavior.

2) A character in-universe has to call them out while knowing about their backstory. This can be Played for Laughs, like in the Calvin and Hobbes example, or Played for Drama like in Legend of Korra.

3) There are two pathways that can happen: Character Development or Ignored Epiphany. Tulip in Infinity Train realizes that she can't demonize her parents for their separation and divorce or pretend that her life was perfect. In contrast, Demona in Gargoyles is called out by the Fates for how she denies it's her own fault that she lost her clans as well as Goliath, and keeps blaming others. And there are grey areas in-between: BoJack does his worst deed after Todd calls him out in season three but then spends season 4 trying to redeem himself.

Thoughts?

We were on a hair-trigger the last time we rejected "Freudian Excuse is No Excuse", and some of the examples provided at the time did appear to be Complete Monster examples. Times have changed, and the CM crowd appears to have abandoned ATT, so the reasoning then doesn't necessarily make sense in the climate now. Things change.

I'd be willing to entertain the "Cool Motive, Still Murder" trope that Jlaw describes here.

How does one change the title on a workshop page? Because I could redraft it as "Cool Motive, Still Murder" and add Brooklyn Nine Nine examples.

One asks a mod, as described here. (Yes, it's bureaucratic, but we don't want people breaking things by accident.)

Okay, so through the forums? I'm happy to do that.

No, you can ask on the page's Talk page. I.e., here.

EDIT: For everyone's reference: All The Tropes:How to Get a Page Name Changed.

My mistake; I must have misread. Will start a new thread!