Forum:Long Term-Perpetual Projects

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ChrisX (talkcontribs)

Has ATT been on that level of translating articles in other languages? I might give it a shot here, after my 'falling out' with TVT...

Robkelk (talkcontribs)

The technology exists to do this, but as far as I know nobody's ever had time to start.

I think it's a great idea, so if you want to be the first, I'd be happy to help you get things going. I can't help with translations, though.

Reply to "ATT in other Languages"

Trope Pantheon, Second Chance Project

Jade Shauni (talkcontribs)

Okay, I've talk with GethN7, and there's a chance to bring back the Trope Pantheon, but it has to go through some stiff rules, first and foremost as shown in my sandbox, we're aiming for a Trope Museum of Greats and because the Other Trope wiki ran into some insane problems, like inconsistent epic sagas, bad grammar, using fads to put in gods ('Cause of shows/movies that are currently on), and I don't know what else. I got some questions for additional rules, I'm thinking rules so that way the gods/goddesses won't get rotated out, should there be two/several gods for one trope or should the TP be one god per trope, also, what type of rules should be added so we won't fall, like Tv Tropes? User:Jade Shauni/sandbox

Robkelk (talkcontribs)

I never had a TVTropes account. Could you give me a quick description of what the Trope Pantheon is supposed to be, and what it turned into at TVTropes, please?

Jade Shauni (talkcontribs)

Back in Tv Tropes's early days (and I used to lurk there), the Trope Pantheon used to be a museum of sorts that's about characters and a few historical ones that embody a trope, hence the god/goddesses stuff, just for fun purposes, Robkelk. What happen to Tv Tropes was that their Trope Pantheon became a huge mess over there, some of the tropers went wild and made horribly written huge fanfiction saga, that's so huge that they need a spread sheet to keep track of characters and events. So, it left from being a Trope Museum into I don't know what is. Here's the link:

The goal that I'm proposing when resurrecting the TP, is keep it as a museum, not the twin of the worst Kingdom Hearts fanfiction.

Robkelk (talkcontribs)

Ah, so this is along the lines of "Mikoto Misaka is the poster girl for Modesty Shorts"? If we phrase it that way, we might keep some of the cruft out of the list.

Jade Shauni (talkcontribs)

Yes, I'd really like to keep the cruft out when the TP comes out. So, we word it like that?

Robkelk (talkcontribs)

Unless somebody else can come up with a better idea, why not?

Jade Shauni (talkcontribs)

Okay, so it's a Poster Museum instead? I do like that idea, it'll make ATT more different than Tv Tropes. Looks like I have to rewrite some things in my sandbox.

Labster (talkcontribs)

I think we already have something similar in Most Triumphant Example (Sugar Wiki), and to a lesser degree Trope Codifier. I'd argue that the reason the second didn't become overgrown like the first is that it had a boring word like "codifier" in the title that sounded too much like lit crit. Boring definitions scare tropers away; everyone loves opinions!

I don't spend much time around here, but having done the wiki transfer I'm really quite familiar with most of the page titles. Everything has been done before, if you can find it. The question is if you can make it something worth finding.

Anyway I like the idea of a portrait gallery that serves as an MTE for character tropes, as opposed to plot and setting tropes.

Jade Shauni (talkcontribs)

Though I need to think and have ideas bounce off, so I can fix the template, to repurpose it into the Poster Museum, I only fix the summary page. What needs to be added or deleted in the template? Also, lets just keep it to characters, historical domain people, and character tropes instead, so it can be "small". The long time will gives us enough time to make the Poster Museum as different as possible from the TP.

ChrisX (talkcontribs)

This looks interesting for a revival. I was known as one who managed the Trope Pantheons, but these days, I feel a little off, and an injustice struck to me by a certain TV Tropes mod that caused me to speed up my plans to leave that Pantheon project... and wow, here it is.

I apologize as one of those who didn't let TP spiral down into that. Where did you plan such thing?

SundownLiterati (talkcontribs)

If I were in charge of the TV Tropes Pantheon, I'd fill with characters from classic mythology, poetry, epics, literature, etc. Figures who were the premier examples of tropes, those who popularized these literary devices. Not from recently-concluded season anime which happened to include my waifus or husbandos.

ChrisX (talkcontribs)

The thing is, sometimes, Anime and Video Games can have a chance to get that too. However, they need to have their influence greatly noted since the past. A good example of this is Mazinger, Gundam, Fist of the North Star for Anime. And as of Video Games... Mario, for example?

One of the rules that needs to be set is to ensure that "Recent Events" are NOT allowed in order to make sure it doesn't depend on hype and we really are celebrating 'best examples'.

Robkelk (talkcontribs)

Speaking with my Mod hat on, I'll just say two things. First, if this turns into an Edit War, we'll have to do something about it, so please come up with some rules that everybody's comfortable with. Second, please add the "Just for Fun" tag to the pages.

Taking my Mod hat off... well, I've already offered a suggestion, further up the thread. But that's just a suggestion.

Looney Toons (talkcontribs)

The likelihood of the inevitable edit war is one reason why I wouldn't mind seeing the Trope Pantheons erased entirely.

Reply to "Trope Pantheon, Second Chance Project"

Concerning the Trope Pantheon

Jade Shauni (talkcontribs)

So, what's the plans from resurrecting the Trope Pantheon? I was a bit surprise that the importer bot didn't port some of those pages.

Robkelk (talkcontribs)

What is the Trope Pantheon?

(I wasn't a TVTroper; I don't know the references there.)

Jade Shauni (talkcontribs)

It's this, poke around. Link: Though it's been a long time since I last look there, some of the gods/goddesses list might've been added to, subtracted, censored, and replace. I remember when the list(s) used to be small and that's before 2011.

Robkelk (talkcontribs)

It looks like we used to have the page(s), but folks decided to get rid of them. I found this in the wiki's change log:

13:28, 13 September 2014 Gethbot (talk | contribs | block) deleted page Trope Pantheons (per wiki talk forum discussion)

That was about a year before I joined the admin team, so I don't recall what the reasoning was behind getting rid of the pages.

Jade Shauni (talkcontribs)

I see. Yesterday, when I found out I was wondering why we don't have it and wondering if we can add new gods/goddesses, just to make AtT's trope pantheon a bit unique (and to show we're not exactly a TvT clone even more). If there's plans to resurrect the TP.

SelfCloak (talkcontribs)

I found the forum thread from 2014 (after a long search).

Jade Shauni (talkcontribs)

Oh, that explained why the old model got deleted when it came here. I do like GethN7's ideas about our own Trope Pantheons, even starting afresh with new gods and to keep it serious, so it won't fall down the same level as the Tv Tropes one.

GethN7 (talkcontribs)

If anyone wants to revive it, I won't stand in the way.

Jade Shauni (talkcontribs)

So, how does one resurrect it and keep it from swirling down into crazy fanfic-verse?

GethN7 (talkcontribs)
Jade Shauni (talkcontribs)

It would be difficult though, but I think there must need to be some sort of stricter rules laid in on who gets to be in the Tropes Pantheon. So that way we won't accidentally add our fap material/waifu/husbandos and it will have less of a chance of become a badly written Kingdom Hearts fic. But I'm just brainstorming here, if what I'm saying doesn't work or the whole TP is a fail. I can ask let's resurrect something else instead.

GethN7 (talkcontribs)

Well, again, I'm not going to work on this myself, but if it were revived, the following rules would be quite useful.

1. Use proper grammar at all times. If your English is poor or not your first language, get it proofread in a sandbox before posting or don't post.

2. If you have a bias for or against a character, keep it out of your writing.

3. Crossovers should have some modicum of logic involved.

4. Connections based purely on voice actor connections are a lazy way to write crossover interaction.

5. Don't put characters in positions because they are currently in vogue, do it because they best embody a trope.

6. Keep everything consistent. TV Tropes needs a massive Google Docs spreadsheet to keep track of shit and they still can't keep it consistent because they have too many cooks changing up the soup that don't communicate with each other.

7. Refrain from trying to write epic fanfiction sagas. TV Tropes has done so and it should be avoided, as they have limited characters based around the same damned themes and the mass majority of it is written by some weirdo who likes the same five to eight or so series and can't stand some characters got portrayals they didn't like.

8. If you are writing about a character because something about them turns you on, STOP.

Just some decent rules off the top of my head I can think of right now.

Jade Shauni (talkcontribs)

These are good rules, though what's funny is I never associated the TP as a huge fanfic epic saga, since I always thought that they should embody the trope...Which is why they ended up as gods. I treat the TP more of a Trope god museum of greats (I'm usually the first one to crossover everything that I get my hands on though, good thing it didn't click back then and I was valuing common sense).

GethN7 (talkcontribs)

I agree. It was fine when it was just a trope museum, but when it became the bloated mutant TV Tropes has turned it into, nope, don't want to go there.

Robkelk (talkcontribs)

Should we suggest that epic fanfic sagas be posted to FFN or Archive of Our Own instead of to ATT? That way, anybody who really wants to write one can, but not here, thankyouverymuch.

GethN7 (talkcontribs)

TV Tropes already enforces that policy.

Jade Shauni (talkcontribs)

Okay, if this does get resurrected. I'll say put GethN7's rules above the template and a warning that we don't wanna fall, like TvT, and straying from the Trope Museum path by making the same mistakes.

Jade Shauni (talkcontribs)

Question, how do you feel about real people coming into the Trope Pantheon? I saw some guys (i.e. Terry Prachette, Tolkien) in the Tv Tropes Pantheon. I have a feeling that we should just stick to fictional characters when it comes to the new Trope Pantheon, mainly because of "No Real Life Examples" and it'll be easy to use in sites, like (Which has a no real people rule, though I don't think that historical dead people count).

Robkelk (talkcontribs)

I'm inclined to agree with you there. Even though ATT is a noncommercial site, we still need to take into account the right of publicity.

Historical Domain Characters - no problem (especially if they're the "larger than life" versions of historical people). Living people - might have a problem.

Jade Shauni (talkcontribs)

Okay. Yes, there's gonna be problems with people who are currently alive, especially if they're politicians. Is there any questions that needs to be ask, before we bring back Trope Pantheon?

ChrisX (talkcontribs)

I am on board with this project. I just found this site and it looks like a good project to work on after me being dead inside as far as TVT is concerned.

There is one concern though to make sure this is a truly unique TP: How to differentiate with the 'Most Triumphant Example' by TV Tropes? And you want to be careful with Fan Myopia. We may know one character as 'best representing the trope', but when others don't know, they may suggest change.

HotmanX32 (talkcontribs)

Hello, Everyone, I've been a user from TVTropes and I've been on board with this project. There are a few things I'd like to address here regarding the rules:

1. I fully agree with Real Life characters being banned from the pantheon, let alone wrestlers, at that. The people at the TVTropes Pantheon forum DO NOT listen, because they sincere believe Real Life people deserve a chance at it. At All. They just want to fulfill their own wet dreams when it could create a very heavy backlash.

2. Is this 'weirdo' a female who likes to put characters from Kingdom Hearts, Final Fantasy, Pokemon, Disney, and a few others in the stories? Because I think I know who you're talking about.

3. To GethN7, yes, I've lurked on the Kiwifarms, and yes, the stories pages we had on Wordpress is, as you quote, "full of undiluted autism," though we've tried to mend it to a small degree.

4. I've considered the very option Voice-Actor based connections being banned as it doesn't provide anything interesting. Related to this, you have no idea how cringey it is when some tropers use 4th wall terms.

5. I've had plans to move TVTropes Pantheon to Wordpress, mainly to get away from the incompetent clowns who kept shoehorning the shit I've mentioned above and erase that too.

All I want is the project to be away from incompetent people.

Jade Shauni (talkcontribs)

Be aware that I haven't an idea on how to make a template, plus, I don't want those strict rules above which GethN7 put up there to be hidden from us, both new and old Tropers. Mainly due to me being a squib/scrub. Hence why it isn't off of the ground yet.

Here's some of my ideas from my sandbox.

Before Submitting a God/Goddess, Read The Rules: These rules are made so we don’t fall like Tv Tropes, their Trope Pantheon is more convoluted and messed up than Call of Duty. - How you ask? You need a spreadsheet to keep track of everything, we want to keep this mainly as a trope museum, having a character that embodies the trope.

1) Use proper grammar at all times. If your English is poor or not your first language, use the sandbox to get it proofread before posting or do not post.

2) If you have any bias for or against a character, keep it out of your writing.

3) Crossovers should make sense, as in having some modicum of logic.

4) Do not do lazy things, like voice actor connections between characters, to write crossovers. If you want to make crossover jokes, there are better ways of doing so.

5) Similar to rule four, please refrain from doing recycled memes. (Example: If making Mario god of mustaches, a meme reference to SM 64 DS where a battle for the best one was a PLOT POINT would be fine, just don't wear out a ton of memes in the process, try to write SOMETHING clever and original of your own).

5) Do not put characters in positions, just because they are in fashion now. Do it because the character(s) best embody a trope.

6) Keep everything consistent.

7) Refrain from trying to write epic fanfiction sagas in All The Tropes, this is a wiki. It’s encouraged that one takes that spark of creativity to, deviantart, Archive of Our Own, and other writing sites like it to make fanfiction about the ATT's Trope Pantheon, not here.

8) If you’re writing just because a character turns you on, don't.

9) If you’re writing about real people for the Trope Pantheon, use only Historical Domain Characters, especially if they’re larger than life. Don’t use currently living people, especially politicians, we don't want problems.

10) Reminder: Careful if you're bringing over a god/goddess from Tv Tropes, please do not copy word for word, otherwise it's copyright infringement. Say it in your own words. - Unless you also post on Tv Tropes and you're bringing over your own edits. In the latter case, follow the obvious regardless.

-- New Deity Template --

God X, God/dess of (Insert Trope Here) (Alternate names/Nicknames/Fan Nicknames)

An image, if possible. Please use official art or a screenshot for a picture.

Rank: This can range from god, demigod, lesser god, and whatever status the Greek Fates has.

Symbol: An image, icon, or item that's used to represent the deity.

Alignment: Good, evil, anti-heroic, and so forth. If one cannot do that, one can use the Dungeons & Dragons character alignment, the ATT Pantheon is kinda base on D&D after all.

Portfolio: The Trope/tropes associated with the character

Domains: Things this character has influence over.

Allies: Gods that are the said god's Pantheon friends/allies

Rivals: Gods that are the said god's Pantheon rivals (Or worst, foes).

Additional Character Relationships: Members of the Pantheon have relationships with each other (examples including Enemy Mine, Friendly Enemy, etc.)

Now add random trivia/facts about events/alignments/moments/fights, etc.

ChrisX (talkcontribs)

I do have a question for #9. By 'real people', you really mean just 'living people that doesn't need internet persona'? Something like JonTron? Because honestly, with what's going on with Youtube lately, I do know that this is another reason why we shouldn't do living people.

Also a good thing to consider: If we're making it to be more like a 'museum' to store the best... How will it differ with 'Most Triumphant Example'? IIRC, Trope Pantheons spiralled down into 'fanfic saga' because otherwise it might get too similar with Most Triumphant Example... even if the result is another disaster...

Also about that 'weirdo'... it might not be that. It may be that one who has deep attachment to the Shin Megami Tensei series and tried to make YHVH behind everything...

Jade Shauni (talkcontribs)

Yes, that's what I meant when I said 'real people', I just meant people that are currently living. I figured that's why we're having a discussion, just to iron out the problems, and find a way to make it different from the "Most Triumphant Example". For the time being, I don't have an idea. Some of the rules are there to make sure we don't go crazy though and to add some sort of balance, I didn't mean to make it sound like "Don't add your favorite character, even though he meets the requirements." (I shoulda reword it better).

Reply to "Concerning the Trope Pantheon"
Jade Shauni (talkcontribs)

So, what are the plans to make All The Tropes different from Tv Tropes? Besides, resurrecting tropes/media articles that gotten axe because of the Google Incidents and making ATT exclusive pages.

SelfCloak (talkcontribs)
Jade Shauni (talkcontribs)

Hmmm, it looks like we're kinda doing those suggestions, like the analysis (This will be tricky to not fall into the "let's list all da tropes"), useful notes, and a few aspects that does need tweaking.

Would having something like the badges that wikia help? I don't know if that'll be a good idea, 'cause I already like the userboxes and whatever is already implemented. Seeing that awards was suggested.

SelfCloak (talkcontribs)

I doubt implementing achievements for this wiki would be useful because it would be so much effort for such a small userbase. Also, I think that achievements on wikis are way less entertaining than those on video games, so I don't really see the appeal.

There's OpenBadges and a MediaWiki extension for that, but just looking at its Developers page is daunting in itself.

Jade Shauni (talkcontribs)

Wish that I can do more though, besides talk about the site on Deviantart and reddit.

GethN7 (talkcontribs)

Plans are currently in the pipeline to give the wiki a major feature overhaul, to make it more competitive feature-wise with TV Tropes and to provide better edit tools and even some fun stuff of users to play with.

I cannot say more until tests are done, but it is hoped that this will help in inducing more people to use our wiki if it is more easily accessible to edit and socialize on.

LulzKiller (talkcontribs)

@Jade Shauni I've been developing this idea of using a rating system of quality similar to what WP and many other wikis do to evaluate the quality of their articles. WP calls it Assessment. I've mentioned it on the DW Forums and therefore I welcome your comments.

Jade Shauni (talkcontribs)

Ah, ok, I don't have a thing to add about the assessment currently and I'm looking forward to the outcome of the tests. But on a few places on reddit, someones was wishing that ATT was mobile safe (Though this probably counts as part of 'more easily accessible').

Reply to "Make ATT Unique"
Jade Shauni (talkcontribs)

Hey, I was poking around the Darth Wiki mostly and I notice that both the Sugar and Darth wikis need the forums, like the Paint the Hero in Black article. Do we have a big forum to make our own PtHiB (and others)? Also, is it safe for me to add the Wiki Witch and a few pages that I see in Wayback (I know that I will run into a road block with the ones that need those forums). I want to know, so I don't break some rules by attempting to bring back a problematic page/trope.

Reply to "The Darth/Sugar Wiki"

Clean up red links with wrong capitalization or punctuation

Damian Yerrick (talkcontribs)

There are a few thousand titles redlinked on this wiki whose name is the same as that of an existing page, apart from punctuation and capitalization. Either they need to be corrected in the articles, or redirects need to be created. I've made a list at User:Damian Yerrick/redlink fixes; once these are out of the way, I'll be able to run fuzzier matching.

Looney Toons (talkcontribs)

Just to note, this list of thousands is now down to exactly three pages, two of which can be imported from the ATT Wikia, if anyone cares to do so.

Damian Yerrick (talkcontribs)

I ran another report. There are more.

Looney Toons (talkcontribs)

I'm not too surprised. Always in motion, the wiki is.

Looney Toons (talkcontribs)

Four months later, and the list at "redlink fixes" is now entirely blue.

LulzKiller (talkcontribs)

I guess I unintentionally helped with a lot of these

Looney Toons (talkcontribs)

Damian's list now has two redlinks, both at the very top of the page.

Robkelk (talkcontribs)

And those two now exist.

Reply to "Clean up red links with wrong capitalization or punctuation"

Incorrectly-Tagged Works

Summary by Looney Toons

No team effort formed to find works miscategorized as tropes. Looney Toons did it all by himself.

Looney Toons (talkcontribs)

Of late, my efforts to add DEFAULTSORT tags to pages that need them has led me through the contents of the master Trope category. I have discovered that about 10% of the tropes I edit are actually miscategorized works. I think we desperately need a team effort to go through every page in that category and find all the works that have been erroneously put there.

Looney Toons (talkcontribs)

I just had an idea I wanted to throw out for consideration. We've formalized the Trope Life Cycle -- what do people think of coming up with icons or graphics for some of the stages? I was thinking in particular that it might be a good idea to have a visual flag to put on the pages for Dead Horse Tropes and Forgotten Tropes. A graphic for the default live trope would probably be more trouble than it's worth, but these two I think might profit from an icon of some sort.

SelfCloak (talkcontribs)
Reply to "Trope Life Cycle Icons"
QuestionableSanity (talkcontribs)

TV Tropes tried to implement a Relationships system whereby tropes could be connected into a single tree of supertropes and subtropes. This seems like a wonderful idea to me, and I don't know why they didn't push it more than they did.

I think if we create a subpage for Related Tropes, we can push the concept farther than TV Tropes did, helping to establish more of a unique identity for us.

GethN7 (talkcontribs)

Interesting idea, actually, though I'm not sure how it should be implemented.

QuestionableSanity (talkcontribs)

Well, to start with, we need a boilerplate for the Related Tropes page. It should contain a table, which contains lists for supertropes, subtropes, and neighbor tropes (tropes that share a common supertrope). We'll dispense of the "parent"/"child" terminology, because I think that caused some people to be confused as to what it's about. We want everyone to know that All The Tropes is organizing them in a "general to specific" manner, NOT in a "this trope evolved/gave birth to this trope" manner. (Unless you prefer otherwise?)

We'll also need an icon for it (I can take care of that).

Finally, you or Vorticity can make a bot which automatically patrols Related Tropes subpages, and ensures the data matches up (all supertropes listed in Trope X's RT subpage should list Trope X as a subtrope in all the supertropes' RT subpages, and vice versa). It won't be as instant and automatic as whatever TV Tropes does, but it will suffice, I think.

GethN7 (talkcontribs)

Vorticity is currently working on a much improved trope/work/creator template to replace our current ones, so you might wish to ask him if you can assist with that, since this proposal and that go somewhat hand in hand.

Labster (talkcontribs)

I'm not sure it needs to be a subpage. Well, let me rephrase that. I'm sure it needs to be displayed on the main page, probably as some sort of Wikipedia-like data template. If what you want to do is have that template be on another subpage, and transcluded into the main page (along with its own edit link), that might work. We might even want to do that with examples some day.

But... I don't really have tuits to set this up right now. Any idea on how to start that kind of design?

Also since you mentioned images... you made cool images, but I felt like they were way too big. Is it possible for you to work at smaller sizes? 24/32/48/64px? I'd like to do sprites that display in hi-res on retina displays.

QuestionableSanity (talkcontribs)

Well right now, the icons themselves are 60px, so that puts them just under the upper limit you suggested. But yeah, I'll see what I can do.

EDIT: Turns out I can do some right now.

So, ven did you first realize you had an obsession vith 'troping'?

The crimson circle / invokes Japanese concept. / Lazy shortcut? Yes.


GethN7 (talkcontribs)

Think I may have come up with a solution for the related pages idea, filed an issue to get a few extensions installed that should help us implement it.

Goo Monster (talkcontribs)

I don't think this page is perfect (I've had to fix stuff on it in the past, and there might have been stuff I over looked), but it is probably a good resource for you to tap into: Troperithmetic.

Reply to "Trope Relationships"

The "Works Needing Summary" Index Needs You!

Tbok1992 (talkcontribs)

Well, given the old topic on this is gone, I just want to say that the list of projects that need pages is here, and it needs your help! Whether it be filling out redlinks with pages or even just adding works without pages to the list, we need YOU to help fill in our page-gaps and missing works so we can truly come into our own as a Wiki!.

I mean, we don't even have pages on Game Grumps or The Lego Movie for god's sake! So let's get crackin'! Anyone want to take on any projects?

QuestionableSanity (talkcontribs)

To make a Game Grumps page, I suggest we start copying stuff in from the Game Grumps Wiki. I think they're under the same license.

GethN7 (talkcontribs)
To make a Game Grumps page, I suggest we start copying stuff in from the Game Grumps Wiki. I think they're under the same license.

They are under CC BY SA, so yes, we are compatible.

Reply to "The "Works Needing Summary" Index Needs You!"
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