Trope Workshop talk:Power Buff

What's the difference between this trope and Status Buff? Did we just create a duplicate trope?

I know "Status Buff" says it's about video games. "Takahashi Couple" was "Belligerent Sexual Tension written by a particular writer" before we combined the two.

@Agiletek @GentlemensDame883 @Haggishunter @HeneryVII @Ilikecomputers @Jlaw @Kuma @Lequinni @RivetVermin @Umbire the Phantom @Utini501 @Labster @Looney Toons @GethN7 @Robkelk

I think Status Buff is video game only, but combining the two might be a good idea.

Unlike TV Tropes, we don't have any need to create multiple pages about the same trope in different media in order to sell more advertising space splinter the trope list. I see no reason to have two tropes that are identical except for which medium they apply to.

So I'm not the only one who takes issue with all the trope splinters on TV Tropes, ha ha. But yeah, I'm okay with merging this and Status Buff.

The way I understood this trope was as a meta-power (ability, spell, etc) that improves other powers. In hindsight, trying to generalise it to buffs on other things like physical attributes (granted that stuff like "improve Spider-Man's super strength to Hulk level" are a messy grey area) was a mistake that creates unnecessary confusion, and I probably should have put my foot down on the stricter scope at the launch stage.

The name Power Buff does sound like a subtrope of Status Buff, depending how broadly we define "power", so I think we could get away with narrowing the scope. That said I'm OK with merging them.

I also note that Magic Enhancement describes Status Buff as "[Magic Enhancement] applied to gameplay." I'm not sure that's 100% true anyway since Magic Enhancement doesn't specify that it's temporary, but it will need updating if we merge them.

I think we could get away with narrowing the scope.

Folks, it's launched. If you want to narrow the scope, it has to go back into the Trope Workshop.

I also note that Magic Enhancement describes Status Buff as "[Magic Enhancement] applied to gameplay."

Yeah, that should be fixed, too.

Status Buff is a trope that details a buff that can be granted through magic, skills, or items in Video Games. Power Buff is about a meta superpower that enhances the attributes of others and even enhances superpowers. I initially considered making the trope about a superpower that can boost other superpowers. However, then it became flexible with increasing other attributes. Another interesting contrast between Status Buff and Power Buff is how Power Buff can actively enhance power, even overloading superpowers to Power Incontinence. Status Buff can merely buff characters for an instance, compared to how Power Buff can be constant based on the user using the power actively.

That still sounds to me like they're the same trope.

How is Power Buff, a meta-superpower that can boost attributes and superpowers, similar to Status Buff, a video game trope about buffs? One significant difference between the two is how Status Buff details how buffs can be for healing, curing status effects, boosting stats, reflecting spells and attacks, protection from damage, regeneration, and buffing the effect of attacks or spells. Power Buff is about a meta-superpower giving power to an individual, especially towards their superpower, where it can even make their superpower go haywire if amped too much. Power Buff can't do most of what Status Buff can, like healing, protection, reflection, etc., unless I am missing something. So then, what do you see as the same since you responded that you see them as similar or the same?

One is about increasing another character's power. The other is about increasing another character's power.

That's a simple way of putting it, but what about when they differ? For example, Status Buff has to do with attributes related to RPG gameplay, especially since it's a video game trope. Here is an example from Status Buff that details what spells can buff characters:

• The Dragon Quest series has grown to include an enormous variety of buffing magic spells and abilities, such as Bikill/Oomph (doubles one character's attack power for a while, but they can't get critical hits), Upper/Buff and Increase/Kabuff (raise one ally's defense, or the party's defense), SpeedUp/Acceleratle (boost the party's agility), Barrier/Insulatle (protect the party from fire and ice), and Bounce (create a barrier that reflects magic spells cast on the target). In earlier games, many monsters and some AI-controlled characters could spend a turn gathering their strength, in order to make their next attack stronger. Later on this ability was made available to your characters, as Psyche Up. Dragon Quest VIII made it even better by allowing you to Psyche Up multiple times to build up even more power, eventually giving you the appearance of having Super Saiyan hair, as can be largely expected because of the character designer being Akira Toriyama.

So how would the superpower that increases powers especially to the point of Power Incontinence compare to a video game buff? What video games buffs can cause Power Incontinence?

Now then, Power Buff is supposed to be about meta-superpower such as Power Limiter (a trope about limiting power), Power Parasite (a trope about absorbing power), and Power Nullifier (a trope about nullifying powers), where each describes how they weaken power from a character. So, do you consider those other trope about other powers to be debuffs like in video games? Because Power Buff is about a meta-superpower where it increases power, like how these other tropes debilitate powers. Here is a prime example of what it describes:

• As seen above, from Marvel Comics, Zach, aka Amp, is a mutant who can output energy to anything around him, such as technology or other mutants. By using this superpower, he can bolster other mutants' powers but could also short-circuit them.

If Power Buff is the same trope, where is it described that it can cause Power Incontinence when status buffs are used in video games? Also, on a side note, I originally got the idea for the trope here, which can better describe what I was aiming for while showing possible differences between the two tropes: https://powerlisting.fandom.com/wiki/Power_Augmentation.

So how would the superpower that increases powers compare to a video game buff?

We are now at the point where we are both asking the same question.

Sorry, I was a bit too focused on other parts of my post while writing the question, I meant to write "So how would the superpower that increases powers especially to the point of Power Incontinence compare to a video game buff? What video games buffs can cause Power Incontinence?" I also edited the post to include the question I meant to ask earlier.

So how would the superpower that increases powers especially to the point of Power Incontinence compare to a video game buff?

That would be Buff plus Up To Eleven.

Interesting, so you know video games where they can buff a target to the point that's it detrimental?

Hyperkani's Bomber Friends probably counts. There are per-level speed buffs that can make the character hard to control if too many are collected, and a short-lived "curse" that turns the speed up ridiculously high. A couple of the bomb buffs can also be dangerous if the player is careless.

I know almost nothing about video games.

Honestly, as far as I'm concerned, these are the same trope. The difference is only a matter of degree rather than kind.

It has always been the policy of All The Tropes that we do not create new tropes that are nothing but "Like Trope X, but while standing on one foot and whistling." To be honest, this trope is the supertrope we needed -- Status Buff is the "Like X" trope that needs to be rolled into it.

But in the future we must do far more due diligence to make sure trope candidates aren't just something that already exists, just in a new wrapper.

Just to be clear, the trope is Super-Trope and Status Buff is the Sub-Trope. I'm down with that and I will try to make sure that trope candidates in the future aren't something else. I'll make sure to do my due diligence with tropes.

If this is the supertrope, perhaps we should simply rename it to "Buff".

Making the title for the trope into Buff would lose its relation as a meta superpower with others like Power Parasite, Power Limiter, Power Nullifier, etc. There is also how making it just one word would leave it too broad while also not allowing for a proper description of it being able to boost superpowers from a simple title like Buff.

Making the title for the trope into Buff would lose its relation as a meta superpower with others like Power Parasite, Power Limiter, Power Nullifier, etc.

Yes. Exactly. That's the whole point to a supertrope. Supertropes are supposed to be broad. They are not supposed to be linked to a single medium. If this is a supertrope, then it must go beyond being about only comic books.

"Supertrope" means "trope at a level above most tropes". It does not mean "trope about caped musclebound brawlers in spandex".

In this particular case, the supertrope is supposed to include magic, metahuman powers, esper abilities, real life performance-enhancing drugs, and more. To quote Looney Toons:

It has always been the policy of All The Tropes that we do not create new tropes that are nothing but "Like Trope X, but while standing on one foot and whistling." To be honest, this trope is the supertrope we needed -- Status Buff is the "Like X" trope that needs to be rolled into it.

If you're going to insist on this applying only to superpowers, then I'll propose deleting it altogether.

Okay, I was thinking about what the trope describes and how the title may define it. I agree with your post, but I am still neutral about changing the title to Buff. We should read others' opinions on changing the title before making the change, like when it was renamed before launch.

Assuming we're going to keep this as a supertrope, which existing tropes are subtropes of it and should be marked as such? Definitely these two:

• Magic Enhancement
• Status Buff

What else?

Amplifier Artifact could be another sub-trope.

I see this as affecting the power rather than the character itself. I really, really should have done this at the creation stage, but here's how I would fix and clarify it:

'

A Power Buff is a superpower (ability, spell, etc) that increases other characters' superpowers. Individuals who possess this power can increase their and others' powers beyond their innate limits, whether in terms of raw output or other effects. These effects are usually temporary, especially if potency and range is involved. Boosting superpowers too much may also entail other Necessary Drawback like (hyperlink Power Incontinence) making the affected powers uncontrollable. Naturally, it's useless without any powered person around, but when there are, makes the user a priority target for Shoot The Mage First.

Inversion/opposite of Power Limiter, which limits a person's power. Contrast Super Empowering, which is about giving a person some or more powers, although it's not impossible for a granter of powers to also alter its gifts.

'

And then nuke any examples that don't talk about affecting powers specifically.

Hopefully that creates enough distinction and specificity to make it unique.

I like that, and I was saying that the trope was about the trope in earlier posts on this discussion. I want to help with making that change. Do you know any possible examples that don't talk about amplifying superpowers?

Just looking at those already present:

• Psyren
• A Certain Magical Index
• Fairy Tail
• Bleach
• Percy Jackson

Physicals are a grey area; something that improves a muggle's physique to superhuman levels (eg Batman to Superman) would fall under Status Buff rather than this, but something that explicitly works by improving an existing power (eg Spider-Man to Hulk) would overlap between this and Status Buff. However, none of those examples as currently written suggest that they only work on existing powers and, barring any such clarification, should be axed.

Thank you for your response. I understand what you are saying, and it is appreciated. But let's hold off on discussing this further because Robkelk wants to delete this trope over a misunderstanding. I don't mind waiting until that problem is resolved. Is that okay with you?

Not over a misunderstand.

Deletion has been proposed because you refuse to pay attention to what you're told. We had a name for people who behaved on Usenet the way you behave here: trolls.

Your constant revisionism in order to "win" discussions is no longer tolerated. Learn how to behave like the adult that you supposedly are.

All I know is that I replied to GentlemensDames833's post, seeing a connection with what I posted on this discussion previously. We aren't in cahoots with each other, and I thought he could share his perspective. I did not intend to prove someone right or wrong but to grasp others' perspectives better. I am not being a troll, or at least I am not trying to be. I honestly forgot about that part of your post compared to the other information related to the discussion on the trope. I'm just an autist trying to communicate and having trouble doing so. I don't care at this point who is right or wrong, and I will go with the group consensus at this point because it is the best thing that I think of doing right now.

If you're going to insist on this applying only to superpowers, then I'll propose deleting it altogether.

That wasn't an idle threat.

I move to delete this trope as a duplicate.

@Agiletek @GentlemensDame883 @Haggishunter @HeneryVII @Ilikecomputers @Jlaw @Kuma @Lequinni @RivetVermin @Umbire the Phantom @Utini501 @Labster @Looney Toons @GethN7 @Robkelk

Seconded.

Seeing as I'm trying to hash out the A Different Thing From Trope X-ness of this, I'm voting against. But I'd really like for more people to weigh in before we hasten to give it the boot.

I am against this as well. I already posted about it earlier in response, trying to say I wasn't trying to change the trope away from being a super trope, as stated before, but was having a reply with GentlemensDames833. I still want to focus on making it a super trope, and I don't mind doing the work to do it. I believe this is just a misunderstanding.

Voting against because I'd rather see it either combined with SB or used as a supertrope.

What!? I was trying to discuss with GentlemensDames833 what they posted. I think you are going a bit too fast, especially since I wasn't planning on changing the trope on a whim. I didn't know that was a threat, but this is another post to discuss this trope. It can still be a super trope if changing it would cause this many problems. Also, for clarification, why would having the trope focus on a superpower boosting other superpowers be a good reason to delete it?

Also, for clarification, why would having the trope focus on a superpower boosting other superpowers be a good reason to delete it?

Telling you for the third time in this thread:

It has always been the policy of All The Tropes that we do not create new tropes that are nothing but "Like Trope X, but while standing on one foot and whistling."

Don't make us say it a fourth time.

Okay, it looks like the third time the charm. I apologize for any damage to my response with GentlemensDames833. I was trying to have a broad and flexible perspective that you, as an admin, can understand. I will remember "Like Trope X, but while standing on one foot and whistling." We can now focus on Power Buff being a super trope and not stray from the discussion.

Status Buff is a gameplay mechanic. It doesn't apply to super-powers. Status Buff can be used on anybody on any aspect they have. It is in fact a way of balancing games, so you have to think carefully in how use them. You can use status buff to make a character do more damage, but if their attack status is low it will not do much of a difference.

Power Buff can only make powers that people already have stronger. It can't make them faster if they don't have super-speed, or stronger if they don't have super-strength. It always amplifies super-powers people already have.

So no, it's not the same trope because Status Buff can be used way more extensively.

I'm sorry if I'm late, but I only looked at this thread now.

Status Buff is a gameplay mechanic. It doesn't apply to super-powers.

Players of Defenders in City of Heroes would point at you and laugh at your ignorance.

To be less snarky, City of Heroes is a video game. About super-heroes. Defenders are a class of character whose powers buff other characters' powers. They have a gameplay mechanic which buffs super-powers.

I corrected myself about this 18 hours ago. I'm just saying that Power Buff is way more restrictive than Status Buff is.

Honestly, I don't see it. They're basically the same thing, only one is "for this kind of thing only". That's the exact definition of "Like Trope X but more restrictive" that Rob and I have been citing all this time.

Status Buff is a gameplay mechanic.

Why?

It doesn't apply to super-powers.

Why not?

This is not TV Tropes. We don't artificially inflate the number of pages we have in order to sell more advertising space. (We also don't sell advertising space.)

I'm sorry if I'm late, but I only looked at this thread now.

You didn't look very hard. Saying it a fourth time:

It has always been the policy of All The Tropes that we do not create new tropes that are nothing but "Like Trope X, but while standing on one foot and whistling."

Since we can't can't even decide whether this is a supertrope or a duplicate of Status Buff, it needs more work. Back into the Trope Workshop

I'm sorry if I have to make my points very specific. Status Buff doesn't apply to super-powers only. In the very page it is pointed out healing is a Status Buff. Health points represent the ability of a character to keep fighting. It is not a power to have health points. So, Status Buff is not a Power Buff, because health is not a power.

Status Buff is a videogame trope because it always applies to stats, values used in a videogame to determine certain traits of characters, like their ability to damage, to defend, to evade, or how much more damage they can take before they're knocked out or die(depends on the game). Power Buff applies to multiple media and only to super-powers characters already have. A Power Buff is incapable of doing anything to a normal person.

PS: And I never talked about advertising space or TV Tropes, I don't know why you keep bringing that up.

Video games are not the only games that have stats.

Also, see the very first sentence in the trope description: "A Power Buff is a superpower that increases characters' abilities and even other's superpowers." By that definition, steroids are a power buff. The distinction wouldn't need to be made if the trope was about something "incapable of doing anything to a normal person".

I begin to wonder how many people didn't bother to actually read the trope before making their arguments here.

And I keep bringing up splitting the tropes because people keep talking about doing it as if it's a good thing. ATT policy is that it isn't. The only place where it's considered to be a good thing is the place that sells advertising space -- multiple pages means multiple ads and thus more money for the site owners.

Since when steroids are a super-power? As far I know, steroids are a drug. They're not even supernatural in nature.

Yeah, sorry, I know about tabletop RPGs. I'm sorry if I forgot that.

But how stat buffs include things like health, that it's not certainly a super-power and definitely not an ability, those tropes certainly don't blend completely into each other. I do not think a fusion is justified.

Since when steroids are a super-power? As far I know, steroids are a drug. They're not even supernatural in nature.

Yes. Exactly. And that's one reason why this trope is not just about superpowers.

Read the trope description. Don't make assumptions about what you think it should say -- pay attention to what it actually does say.

Fix it, or ask for it to be deleted now. You have three weeks, and that's only because Easter weekend is in a week and a half.

If no substantive work is done on this before April 6, it will be deleted without further notice.

@Agiletek @GentlemensDame883 @Haggishunter @HeneryVII @Ilikecomputers @Jlaw @Kuma @Lequinni @RivetVermin @Umbire the Phantom @Utini501 @Labster @Looney Toons @GethN7 @Robkelk

Will look at it and do what I can to assist.

The trope has a clear description, over a dozen examples, four categories, and an on-topic image.

Calling for the vote: Launch?

Pinging the usual folks, but everybody is welcome to vote: @Agiletek @Bauerbach @BeesFan12 @Coffee Lover @Dominicmgm @GentlemensDame883 @H-Games~Documentation @Haggishunter @HelljmprRookie @HeneryVII @Ilikecomputers @Jlaw @Just a 1itt1e bit further @Lequinni @RivetVermin @Tad Cipher @The23rdCamper @TheEric132 @Umbire the Phantom @Utini501 @Xemylixa @Labster @Looney Toons @GethN7 @Robkelk

I vote to launch.

I'll vote to launch

Vote to launch

Launch.

I vote launch, not too fussed about the name but agree that "buff" has a couple of advantages over "booster".

Vote to launch.

One week, six votes to launch, no votes against. Launching.

Launched but not entry-pimped... because as soon as I loaded Super Empowering to link to it, I saw that we already have Status Buff.

Starting a new thread for that issue.

This trope should be ready to be launched as it should have a good description of the trope and enough examples from different media. Do you all vote that this is ready? @Agiletek @GentlemensDame883 @HeneryVII @HornyLikeIAmA14YearOldGirl @Robkelk‎ @Jlaw‎ @Lequinni‎ @RivetVermin @Umbire the Phantom @Utini501 @Labster @Looney Toons @GethN7 @Robkelk @QuestionableSanity @Derivative @SelfCloak@Looney Toons

Seems okay to me, vote to launch

Revise and launch

We might need a new name for the trope: Wikipedia says "A power booster is a combination of motor-mechanical power amplifier- generator", and it's usual on All The Tropes to give Real Life terms their Real Life meanings.

Agreed. I'd rather an Esoteric Trope Name than mis-use real world terminology. (Unless we can make an obvious joke out of it, of course, but there's no joke here. It's painfully unfunny and straightforward.)

<chuckle> Maybe I should propose a new rule for the Workshop: Kuma's not allowed to name his/her candidates. They are to submit every new candidate under the name "To Be Determined" and the other users name it after we're sure what Kuma wrote is what Kuma meant (or vice versa). <grin>

If we don't rename the trope, at least I've found an appropriate page illustration.

Schematic diagram of a Real Life pneumatic powered gas booster types. Single acting single stage, double acting single stage and double acting two stage power boosters.

</snark>

I chose the trope name because it had a straightforward meaning. I suggest renaming Power Amp, Power Buff, Power Boosting, and Power Boost. What do you think? Edit: adding another suggestion for a rename.

Seems launchable, no idea what to rename it to, though.

Do you favor any suggestions I posted?

Notifying people on if they think it's launchable along with asking about who people feel about the renaming with the current suggestions or adding their own. @Agiletek @GentlemensDame883 @HeneryVII @HornyLikeIAmA14YearOldGirl @Robkelk‎ @Jlaw‎ @Lequinni‎ @RivetVermin @Umbire the Phantom @Utini501 @Labster @Looney Toons @GethN7 @Robkelk @QuestionableSanity @Derivative @SelfCloak

Notifying people again about it being launched along with the suggestions for renaming the trope. @Agiletek @GentlemensDame883 @HeneryVII @HornyLikeIAmA14YearOldGirl @Robkelk‎ @Jlaw‎ @Lequinni‎ @RivetVermin @Umbire the Phantom @Utini501 @Labster @Looney Toons @GethN7 @Robkelk @QuestionableSanity @Derivative @SelfCloak

It's been 9 days and I don't know what to do with making sure the page gets renamed and launched!

It can't be launched without a name. What name have people agreed to use?

None, except "not Power Booster". How about lifting a term from gaming and just go with "Buff" or some variation?

I don't play video games and even I know what "buff" means. Vote for Buff as the new name.

"Power Buff" seems good to me.

"Power Buff" sounds workable to me.

"Power Buff" strikes me as a good alternative. I'm okay with that.

Sure, why not? Switching my vote to "Power Buff".

Alright, just feels like my suggestions are being ignored from when I posted a month ago which did include Power Buff so, I vote for it as well.

A month ago, you proposed four different names, without saying which one you liked the best. While we can have a ranked-ballot vote, it's unusual, so somebody has to say that that's what we're doing.

Okay, I thought saying 'What do you think?' would have been enough and how others been saying I write too much in my posts. I'll make sure to write on the lines like 'What names do you want to vote for?' along with saying what name I like the most in the future. Also, the name I like the best was Power Amp.

I wasn't ignoring. I genuinely didn't have any strong feelings about any of them.

That's fine. A response is all I need or even other suggestions are good, too. Also, if you didn't have any strong feelings for any of them then why did you state that Power Buff was workable to you when I suggested it a month ago?

I don't see a contradiction. Just because I don't have strong feelings for any doesn't mean I can't think something is workable.

Alright, I just thought it would better to say something sooner rather than later. Communicating with others can help bring a better understanding and I thank you for your responses. It just feels weird how unresponsive others can be from time to time while I try to engage when possible.