Talk:Fantastic Tribulation

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Regarding the page image...

3
Summary by Kuma

LooneyTunes has changed the thumbnail to be more visible.

Ilikecomputers (talkcontribs)

It's a good image, and it illustrates the trope perfectly without needing you to read the work first. There's just one major problem...

I can't read the image when it's on the page.

When I open it in a new tab, the image does a wonderful job of demonstrating the trope. However, when I'm reading this along with the rest of the article, text boxes are way too small. It doesn't feel like text; it feels like a bunch of squiggly lines. It's not a beautifully illustrated work; it's a random combination of black and whites. I doubt the average reader quickly browsing through all we have to offer will pause to open the image in a new tab.

It's definitely going to be hard to find a new image, and the current one will certainly live on in the image links sub-page, but we shouldn't finalise the page image yet.

This is not a launch blocking issue. We can continue searching for the image after the page launch.

Kuma (talkcontribs)

Okay, I guess I can try making a before and after picture but it will take some work.

Looney Toons (talkcontribs)

Just as a note, I just resized the image thumbnail to make it a bit more readable.

Ready to Launch?

49
Jlaw (talkcontribs)
Looney Toons (talkcontribs)

Oh, I don't know, it's only been in the workshop a couple years... I really think it needs at least

No, I'm joking. I'm cool with finally getting launched. Voting yes.

Umbire the Phantom (talkcontribs)

Holding my vote to launch pending a pass or two - I'll circle back around after.

GentlemensDame883 (talkcontribs)

Let me know how that pass of yours turns out before I cast mine.

Umbire the Phantom (talkcontribs)

Pending a Web Comics check, I'm gonna say "yes". There was still another quality pass or two due, and I figured the least I could do is fix it myself rather than ask that of everyone else - especially when it's been in here so long.

Umbire the Phantom (talkcontribs)

...of course, I say that, and then I run into a bunch of examples in dire need of context beyond "video game world".

Umbire the Phantom (talkcontribs)

Once those examples get sufficient context, I think I can more confidently say yes.

Kuma (talkcontribs)

I agree and its rather hard to find examples away from those found on online Korean media.

Umbire the Phantom (talkcontribs)

I feel like there's far more out there.

Kuma (talkcontribs)

There might be but that would take some searching.

Umbire the Phantom (talkcontribs)

Yep, part of the job description.

Kuma (talkcontribs)

Alright, I believe the page is ready to be launched. Is there any problems with the page that would prevent it?

Robkelk (talkcontribs)

Not necessarily with the page, but as long as the "Context for Umbire" discussion was going on, I wasn't about to launch the page.

I have forced an end to that discussion - which was plodding on long after the matter was addressed and resolved - by closing that thread.

Kuma (talkcontribs)

Okay, thank you. It was just a form of confusion brought on by a lack of understand. Also, I wish to apologize to @Umbire the Phantom about my last post. I was just to trying to make sure there was a clear understand from your last comment rather than extend the discussion. I hope that we can move on and launch this page.

Umbire the Phantom (talkcontribs)

No objection.

Jlaw (talkcontribs)

Not that I see! I'd like to see it launched.

Kuma (talkcontribs)
HeneryVII (talkcontribs)

Seems okay to me.

Ilikecomputers (talkcontribs)

Don't like the amount of redlinks on the site, but otherwise seems good. Voting yes.

Umbire the Phantom (talkcontribs)

The redlinks are meant to encourage article creation for the works, I'd think.

Jlaw (talkcontribs)

Voting yes!

Umbire the Phantom (talkcontribs)

Gonna vote yes here.

GentlemensDame883 (talkcontribs)

Voting yes.

Robkelk (talkcontribs)

MOD: Voting "not until the page has had a spelling and grammar check, and the commented-out question in the The S-Classes that I Raised example has been answered."

C'mon, folks, this is supposed to be done before the vote to launch takes place...

Edit: And what is "a near societal decline", anyway? That's mentioned in the JK Musou - Owaru Sekai no Sukuikata example.

Ilikecomputers (talkcontribs)

Well, I just done a grammar pass from the description to and including literature. Knowing me, there's a high chance the pass contains some sort of mistake, so someone should review it.

If we're being fussy about grammar and structure, then almost every example I've seen so far need rewriting because they have sentences that keeps going on and on like this one, which makes it really hard to understand what they mean—especially since I'm unfamiliar with all these works.

Edit: the problem isn't that sentences are too long. It's that there aren't many smaller sentences to balance them out.

Kuma (talkcontribs)

Sorry, I didn't noticed that until you mentioned them. I have already changed the JK Musou example while also edited the S-Classes that I Raised example with more changes and detail.

Robkelk (talkcontribs)

Well, I just done a grammar pass

I hope you were trying for humour there.

Ilikecomputers (talkcontribs)

Knowing me, there's a high chance the pass contains some sort of mistake

Writing is hard...

Ilikecomputers (talkcontribs)

The pass is now complete. If we are being extra picky, I'll say we need to reduce the size of the absolutely monstrous Rick and Morty example. It's a 441 word bullet point which is difficult to read and follow along. Someone more familiar with these works should go over them and make I didn't do anything wrong, and that the example is easy to read to someone not familiar with the works in question.

Personally, I'm only doing this because I hate seeing tropes stuck in the workshop. Hopefully this means we can continue the launch process. I'll prioritize launching over fixing the problems I mentioned. If we launch, someone in the far future can always improve this trope. If we're stuck here, there's always a chance the trope will be deleted due to inactivity.

Jlaw (talkcontribs)

My apologies; I added those. If anyone can help me figure out how to shorten those examples and simplifies them, it would be great.

Ilikecomputers (talkcontribs)

The biggest thing is that you should only talk about how the trope is used. Set it up in a way to establish exactly how the tribulation came around and how the world has changed, and talk about nothing else. The problem with the Rick and Morty example is that it's more of a plot summary. I don't want to hear the plot of the show; I want to hear how the trope applies to the show.

If you really want to talk about the trope in detail, do so after we've launched it, on the page for the work. People on the work's page are probably familiar with it, and thus can follow along. People like me on the trope's page most likely are not familiar with the work in question. Thus, we only want to hear about the basic details.

Take our example for The Sandman:

During A Game of You, it's revealed that Barbie's dreams feature this. As Princess Barbara, she is the rightful ruler of a realm where the Cuckoo has taken her throne, and introduces chaos through the power of compulsion. Armies march through peaceful villages and terrify the citizens, anthropomorphized creatures that can talk or perform magic. Barbie notes that while the Land is still beautiful, it is no longer home and won't be unless she defeats the Cuckoo. Martin Tenbones tells her that the Porpentine, a magical sugar gem, is what keeps the Land intact so she must never let the Cuckoo destroy it. Barbie fails; the Cuckoo slaughters most of her friends, brainwashes the rest, and compels her to destroy the Porpentine. Dream comes and ends the Land's time in the Dreaming, so all the dead inhabitants enter the palm of his hand. Even worse, when Dream appears, he breaks it gently to Barbie that Cuckoos are supposed to invite this level of destruction. Their nature is to grow in a dream world that isn't there, leave by any means possible, and fly to their hearts' content. He says that if Rose hadn't inadvertently interfered with Barbie's dream, the Cuckoo would be able to leave sooner.

Everything I've highlighted in italics are what I believe to be "plot summary" elements, where we don't talk about how the trope applies to the work. Instead, they talk about the consequences of the trope and what is happening in the dream land. The key thing is that I can follow along with the first part. The second part gets confusing because it dives into the plot of the work.

For a simplified version to go on this page, I'll write:

In A Game of You, Barbie's dreams. The Cuckoo has taken her throne, and introduced chaos through the power of compulsion. Armies change the world by marching through villages and terrifying the citizens. Barbie believes the Land is no longer home unless she defeats the Cuckoo, making this change permanent.

Don't be afraid to clearly signpost how each part of the plot relates to the trope. It's alright to say stuff like The storm of chaos is or thus changing the world forever. This only helps readers understand the example, in case they "zone out" while reading, and forget to absorb or think about the information. I know this, because I did that several times during the grammar pass!

You might want to consult another member of All The Tropes before making any changes to see how they would handle it. Everything here is just my opinion on how I would personally shorten examples. Good luck!

Alternatively, don't even bother with the check. If all other tropers vote that yes, this is launchable, then they clearly don't have a problem. I might be in the minority here. We or another person can always fix this after it's launched.


TL;DR: Only talk about how the work relates to the trope and nothing else.

Ilikecomputers (talkcontribs)

In a similar way, I'll cut the first Rick and Morty bullet point down to just:


Season one features Rick forcing Morty to leave their home for a parallel universe, after Rick accidentally turns all of humanity into Cronenberg mutants when Morty's request for a Love Potion goes wrong.


That works! I talk about what the change is, and how the change impacts the plot.

Jlaw (talkcontribs)

Thank you so much!

Ilikecomputers (talkcontribs)
Kuma (talkcontribs)
Robkelk (talkcontribs)

Speaking as a troper, not as a mod...

The very first thing I see on this page is a two-minute video. I'm not about to watch a two-minute video to find out whether it's an example of the trope.

And if I'm not going to do that, I'm not going to put in the time to read the page.

Kuma (talkcontribs)

Alright, the video has been replaced with a video. Do you think it's works for the page?

Kuma (talkcontribs)

Okay, I could replace with a picture then since I don't know how to time the embedded image.

Robkelk (talkcontribs)
Kuma (talkcontribs)

I accept your apology and thank you. I haven't been that active due to how busy the mods have been. Thank you again for launching this candidate and I hope that I can help launch others in the future.

HeneryVII (talkcontribs)

Seems okay to me, vote to launch

Looney Toons (talkcontribs)

Three days short of a year ago I voted yes. I vote yes again.

GentlemensDame883 (talkcontribs)

Voted yes previously, still yes.

GethN7 (talkcontribs)

Yes, let it out of the oven

Jlaw (talkcontribs)

Awesome!

Robkelk (talkcontribs)

Launched, but (like the tropes I launched yesterday) not entry-pimped.

@Kuma

Summary by Robkelk

Context was provided, acknowledged, and added to the article.

Kuma (talkcontribs)

@Umbire the Phantom asked for some context for some examples, and I will give some. Most of the reasons it happens in the setting are spoilers, so I kept the information to a minimum. I shall try to provide context for them, but they most likely will contain spoilers:

  • Solo Login has Sky Castles appeared one day along with Sky Players with wings that allow them to fly to these Castles. The Underground Dungeons were discovered after the protagonist saves a Sky Player and becomes the first Underground Player. This then leads to monsters coming from the Underground Dungeons. I haven't read far into the story to know their origins, but I am sure it will become a plot point.
  • Solo Leveling's Gates happened due to this war that happened in another world due to beings known as the Monarchs and the Rulers. The Monarchs were losing the war and escaped to other worlds. The Monarchs planned to rebuild their armies by killing humans, but the Ruler intervened to prevent that to ensure humanity's survival.
  • Seoul Station's Necromancer seems to have it as a supernatural phenomenon but has been elaborated on except for having a connection to the other worlds. The story focuses on what the people do to help keep the status quo, and I haven't read that far ahead in the series, but it most likely is a future plot point.

I hope that this helped and if there is any questions then you can leave a reply.

Umbire the Phantom (talkcontribs)

...the idea was to edit the context into the examples.

Kuma (talkcontribs)

Sorry, it's just that I am having trouble to why the context is needed especially when some of it hasn't been revealed from the greater plot or is a major spoiler. The examples detail the setting; so how would adding more context to the examples help?

Umbire the Phantom (talkcontribs)

By... indicating how they count as examples???

Kuma (talkcontribs)

Okay, thanks to @Looney Toons' insight, I believe Umbire the Phantom wanted something distinct from each of the examples. I got confused and thought you wanted to know the origins of what caused the change in the setting, which may give spoilers, or I just don't know. I think I can rework some of the examples to make each of them more unique. I just hope that it doesn't cause any problem with making them longer. Here I go:

  • Solo Login has Sky Castles of an unknown origin appearing around the world. At the same, people can awaken as Sky Players, who gain powers and wings that can fly to Sky Castles. They are filled with monsters to level up while gathering money and equipment. When a Sky Player falls from a Sky Castle, it can create an Underground Dungeon where they can give a quest to a person to become an Underground Player. Similar to Sky Players, they instead use a tail to access Dungeons like the Sky Castles. However, Monsters can travel outside unconquered Underground Dungeons, which Underground Players need to find and defeat the boss to prevent monsters from attacking.
  • In Solo Leveling, portals appear worldwide called Gates connected to another dimension dubbed a Dungeon teeming with monsters termed Magic Beasts. Simultaneously, people known as Hunters appeared with magical powers that could fight these beasts while keeping the public safe from them. These monsters also have Essence Stones, a form of stable and efficient energy source where Hunters gather them for income. Hunters can group together and create Guilds which are associations to recruit Hunters for raids on Gates while administered by governments.
  • Seoul Station's Necromancer has a supernatural phenomenon that causes people to be summoned to different worlds where they gain jobs with magic and skills. They are eventually returned to Earth and are known as Returnees. Dungeons and monsters related to these worlds are also summoned to Earth simultaneously. The government established the Returnee Control Department to gather and regulate Returnees while giving them therapy for traumatic experiences in the other worlds. Guilds are created to provide employment to hunt monsters and conquer the dungeons while also being commercialized, where top-ranked members are seen as celebrities.

Is this satisfactory for being unique and giving context?

Umbire the Phantom (talkcontribs)

It's a start, but if there's spoiler info in each of them, then they should be tagged and hidden as such.

Kuma (talkcontribs)

I made sure to not add spoilers for the examples that I put on the page and the reply.

Umbire the Phantom (talkcontribs)

Spoilers are fine. This is a tropes wiki, and there are going to be spoilers for various works by virtue of our aims.

I am saying that adding them in the text above would have been fine if you had done it, because sometimes the context of examples involve or require spoilers - if spoilers are present, they should be properly marked.

Kuma (talkcontribs)

I don't get how adding more from the plot can help when the trope is more about the setting? Should the trope examples have like a combination for both plot and setting?

Umbire the Phantom (talkcontribs)

Sometimes the story's setting tends to influence, and often figure into, the plot of it.

Kuma (talkcontribs)

Okay, so what context is missing from the examples different from the others because I have already added more detail. So then is there something more missing especially compared to the other examples found on the page?

Kuma (talkcontribs)

Alright, I also want to know what is missing from the context as I have given it more context on the settings.

Looney Toons (talkcontribs)

Remember that we're not just making lists, we're trying to put at least a little analysis into our examples. Why do they count? How do they implement the trope? What's different or unique about their implementation of the trope? An example with no context is no example.

Kuma (talkcontribs)

Alright, I feel like I have been patient enough after waiting for 9 days. Since @Umbire the Phantom hasn't responded with something concrete about why the source of the change needs to be exposited, especially when others don't follow this criterion. I state that it is not crucial for the cause for the change in the setting isn't critical, especially when you look at the other titles which I will list: The World is Overflowing with Monster, I'm Taking a Liking to This Life, JK Musou - Owaru Sekai no Skukuikata, Bouken-ka ni Narou!: Skill Board de Dungeon Kouryaku, System Apocalypse, The S-Classes that I Raised, New World, The Earth is Online, Guilty Gear, microHUNTER, I am the Sorcerer King, Kill the Hero, Tomb Raider King, Metro Hunter, The Advanced Player of the Tutorial Tower, I'm the Max-Level Newbie, and My S-Class Hunters. I have already given info about two examples as I don't know the source since I am not that far into their plot. For Solo Leveling, it is because there is already a paragraph of information for the setting. Adding more would make it bloated and hard to read. There are no spoilers from what I can tell, so there shouldn't be anything marked, and I already made the changes to them a while ago. If there is a problem, I am willing to read about it in response, but I will resolve this discussion.

Robkelk (talkcontribs)

but I will resolve this discussion

Since the examples in question have had context added to them, I would say that this discussion was resolved months ago.

Kuma (talkcontribs)

Alright, its just that Umbire said it was a start like there was something missing and I wanted details about it for months. I hope that this is enough for it to be launched from another discussion.

Umbire the Phantom (talkcontribs)

Since the examples in question have had context added to them, I would say that this discussion was resolved months ago.

Yeah, I literally said "it's a start" and that should've been the end of it, but here I am after one of my "brain train hopped rails" hiatuses finding myself being tagged for this.

Kuma (talkcontribs)

Okay, so, then you realized that stating 'it's a start' would be a misnomer to how that didn't end the discussion but caused confusion on if more need to be added?

Umbire the Phantom (talkcontribs)

Do you really have to litigate every single angle of this? I asked for context, it's been provided, now let's kindly move on.

Inconsistent examples or possible expansion

4
Kuma (talkcontribs)

I am not trying to call out @Jlaw or anyone who has added different examples, but I would like to discuss the trope. The trope is how the setting is changed into something more fantastic on Earth. It can turn into an Urban Fantasy or apocalyptic fantasy. Still, humanity's survival is possible through means that usually come from the source of an apocalypse. My questions come with how different examples from my perspective do seem to fit it well unless I am missing something:

  • Spoilers for Hellstar Remina is about the titular planet coming to Earth and consuming it. It doesn't show much in the way of fantasy, along with the Earth being destroyed in the end.
  • Batman: No Man's Land is about how Gotham has been devastated by a massive earthquake. However, there aren't many fantasy elements from what I know about the comic.

Black As Night is a Zombie Apocalypse caused by the Black Lantern rings where various characters become the undead with their Lantern rings and, if possible, their superpowers. There aren't benefits for people surviving the crisis, and it comes from how arduous the zombies are in this case.

  • Nine is set in a world where machines have exterminated humanity. With humanity dead, it doesn't fit the trope. The only element I can see being fantasy is the amulet Plot Device.
  • Raya and the Last Dragon takes place in Kamandra, a different setting from Earth. There are also no benefits to their survival from the Dragon Gem shattering.
  • I am a bit unfamiliar with Hinduism, but Kalki wiping out people who follow adharma instead of the dharma doesn't show much of an apocalyptic situation. There are also no benefits from it unless there is an interpretation that I am missing.
  • The Last Guardian doesn't seem to fit because it is about how villages are raided by beasts rather than being put into an apocalyptic situation.
  • Gravity Fall's Weirdmageddon is apocalyptic, but there isn't anything from it that helps the town's citizens survive.
  • Amphibia being changed is more of a dystopia due to the industrialization to prepare an army to invade Earth. Also, I can not see helping the Amphibians. Added note, they are not on Earth.
  • Gargoyles' Future Tense shows a dystopic New York that has shown a disastrous situation for the people and the gargoyles. There is also ambiguity due to how the whole thing was a ruse caused by Punk to get the Phoenix Gate from Goliath. Plus, Puck left the question of whether it was just an illusion he conjured or a vision of a possible future.

I wish to discuss this further and if there is possible flexibility with the trope. If there is nothing to discuss within a week of me posting it here. I will delete these examples to make the trope more concise with the current description.

Jlaw (talkcontribs)

You can delete the examples if they don't fit the established criteria. My assumption was they did but I could be wrong.


Kalki's benefit is that the avatar will wipe out all evil from the world, thus achieving balance. That is ostensibly the good side. The bad side is that humans are both good and evil, so you can see the problem.

GethN7 (talkcontribs)

I can see the Hinduism example fitting, albeit it's rather borderline. The rest I can see falling outside the trope definition.

Kuma (talkcontribs)

Alright, thanks, @Jlaw. Also, wanted to give gratitude to @GethN7 on insight about the Hinduism example.

Looney Toons (talkcontribs)
HeneryVII (talkcontribs)

I can think of a few additional examples here (maybe Wizards) but I doubt I'd have enough to put it above Stub status.

Kuma (talkcontribs)

I have changed what I can see is wrong and I am waiting for it to be reviewed. Also, I should've thought of Wizards as an example. Thanks, @HeneryVII!

GentlemensDame883 (talkcontribs)

Not too sure what, apart from the bit I marked for clarification, needs to be worked on in order to make this launchworthy.

Kuma (talkcontribs)

Well, my edit is still being reviewed but I think I have something that might help. 'If the setting becomes an Urban Fantasy, the society that comes into fruition has a status quo or even benefits from the change. Thanks to the inclusion of these changes, civilization may find these benefits, such as new energy resources and the advancement of technology.' So, does that work, @GentlemensDame883?

GentlemensDame883 (talkcontribs)

Still feels off to me, but can't put my finger on exactly why. I'll let someone else take a look at it.

Kuma (talkcontribs)

I think it's that last sentence, i changed it a bit: 'Thanks to the inclusion of these changes, civilization may find these benefits, such as new energy resources and the advancement of technology where it was better compared to the past.' Sorry if I have been distracted, I am trying to do different things at once especially when I am about to volunteer.

Kuma (talkcontribs)

Also, my edit that is being reviewed can give more words where it will get further away from Stub status. Also, I can find more examples, but the ones I know are webtoons, i.e., webcomics, so I hope this can help.

Jlaw (talkcontribs)

I've added a few more examples. My vote would be to launch it.

Kuma (talkcontribs)

Well, it looks launchable to me but I think I'll make a once over to see if there are improvements to the page to make sure that it doesn't get deleted.

Looney Toons (talkcontribs)

All right, there has been sufficient effort to take this out of "abandoned" status. Can we see about making it launchable in the next couple weeks?

Kuma (talkcontribs)

Yes, I agree on discussion on making it launchable in the next couple weeks.

Looney Toons (talkcontribs)

It has been two and a half weeks since I tried to prompt the wiki community to get this launchable in two weeks. Anyone care to actually work on this, or is it getting left in the hands of the admins, like so many other candidates?

Jlaw (talkcontribs)

I added about four or five entries. What further steps would be needed?

Agiletek (talkcontribs)

I think the title is lacking. I keep thinking this is some magical test/curse that forces the participant/victim to learn a lesson (is that already trope page?).

Looney Toons (talkcontribs)

It is now almost a month since the last time anyone worked on this page.

Just sayin'.

Jlaw (talkcontribs)

Should we brainstorm an alternate title? Would that make the trope launchable?

Robkelk (talkcontribs)

I can't see how. The new policy is to declare a trope candidate abandoned if nobody edits it substantially for over a month - brainstorming anything doesn't edit the trope candidate.

There's a cleanup box on the page that's asking somebody to do "an edit pass for grammar, usage and style". That would help make the trope launchable.

Kuma (talkcontribs)

Alright, I have tried to edit the page to get it closer to launchable. I just have to wait for it to be approved.

Kuma (talkcontribs)

I agree, I was against Fantastic Tribulation either. Since we are talking about alternate titles, I have one: Fantasy Setting Shift

Jlaw (talkcontribs)

Maybe also Magical Genre Disruption?

Kuma (talkcontribs)

It's more about a change in the setting rather than the genre of the series but they guess they intersect.

Jlaw (talkcontribs)

Poking again since it seems we can't agree on a title. Voting for Fantasy Setting Shift since it is a good one on further thought.

Kuma (talkcontribs)

I agree to that.

Looney Toons (talkcontribs)

I'll vote for "Fantasy Setting Shift" to get this out of the workshop.

Robkelk (talkcontribs)

I don't see what the fascination is with picking a new title for this trope. The cleanup tag says exactly what needs to be done: "an edit pass for grammar, usage and style".

Has that been done?

Looney Toons (talkcontribs)

I doubt it, since that seems to be the only thing not being discussed.

Kuma (talkcontribs)

Well, I already made changes with the grammar, usage, and style already a while ago. I don't know what else to change but I welcome anyone who can point out what's wrong with anything with the description and examples on it. @Looney Toons@Robkelk

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